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This is nothing new. The "engineerification" in the United States has been going on for the past 40-50 years. I still remember when "trash men" became "sanitati

This is nothing new. The "engineerification" in the United States has been going on for the past 40-50 years. I still remember when "trash men" became "sanitation engineers" back in the 80's! When someone tells me they're an engineer I ask about how hard the PE was. That's when you find out if someone is an actual engineer from a legal perspective or just affixing the term to themselves.

beretguy 3y ago
What’s PE? (I’m a programmer).
- stuartjohnson12 3y ago
  Private equity (I have no idea, I'm also a programmer)
  - me_me_me 3y ago
    Principal Engineer if software related
- philomath_mn 3y ago
  Professional Engineer: https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe
- jmholla 3y ago
  The PE [0] is an American engineering exam. You first take the FE [1], then must apprentice under someone for some length of time (I think ten years) to be allowed to take the PE. Then, once you pass that, you're considered a professional engineer. [0]: https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/ https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/ [1]: https://ncees.org/exams/fe-exam/ https://ncees.org/exams/fe-exam/
  - taylodl 3y ago
    Correct, and this gets at the heart of the matter as to why I believe engineering colleges shouldn't be conferring degrees in computer science. Degrees in computer science should be conferred by the college of arts and sciences, typically by something such as the department of mathematical sciences. I'd be down with the creation of the role of software engineer, a bona fide engineering degree, having licensure similar to the PE. In fact, given how much software is running our lives, I'd say such licensure is long overdue.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
      Texas tried it. Doesn't look like it worked out so well. https://pels.texas.gov/software.html https://pels.texas.gov/software.html
      - taylodl 3y ago
        When does anything Texas tries work out so well?! :) Seriously though, the biggest problem is separating knowledge of programming languages and libraries from actual software engineering. The challenge there is we don't have a good definition of software engineering and how we'd go about doing that. I think it'd be a great start if, as an industry, we actually sit down to figure out what software engineering is.
        HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
        I hope we have a good definition of software engineering, since I have a degree in it, but I'm biased. https://www.computer.org/education/bodies-of-knowledge/software-engineering https://www.computer.org/education/bodies-of-knowledge/softw...
  - StefanBatory 3y ago
    I skimmed at the topics of few them. It certainly seems impressive to me.
  - vunderba 3y ago
- csixty4 3y ago
  It's a formal certification exam for engineering disciplines that need licensing. You usually have to pass two exams – FE (foundations of engineering) and PE (principles of engineering) before you can even be considered for a license.
pokeymcsnatch 3y ago
Meh you don't need a PE to be an engineer. That's stretching the gatekeeping too far. PE is valuable for a lot of things, but not necessary for a lot of actual engineering work. Is a trained and working electrical engineer not an engineer because a PE isn't necessary to design and build sensors, loggers, etc? PE essentially just means you can legally sign off on safety critical designs. Engineering is the application of math and physics to solve a problem. Anecdotally, the handful of PEs I know are the pencil-pusher types. They're engineers on paper, but a critical skill for engineering is actually building stuff.
- burnished 3y ago
  I mean, if someone answers 'no, got a couple years before I'm eligible', or 'no, I don't need it for this line of work', you still probably got an idea of whether this person works in an engineering discipline.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
And I remember when Sanitation Engineers in NYC were starting at $19,000/year while the average starting pay for a BSEE was $27,000. Really made you think!
caconym_ 3y ago
Individuals who have been (literally or figuratively) issued business cards that say "software engineer" on them have generally had no say in how the industry uses that language, and (frankly) if somebody harangued me about it as you are suggesting, I would put them on my list of puffed-up jerks to be avoided at all reasonable costs.
- taylodl 3y ago
  I don't harangue people about it unless they're being obnoxious and bragging about their "engineer" title like they're something special. THEN I'll knock them down a couple notches. I've had the title Software Engineer more than a couple times. Each time I've joked with my boss and fellow employees that we're not actual engineers. The funny thing is both times it was at an actual engineering company having PEs - so you'd think they'd be more careful with that title!
  - caconym_ 3y ago
    Yeah, that's fair. I definitely joke about it with folks whom I know have a sense of humor about such things...

beretguy 3y ago

What’s PE? (I’m a programmer).

stuartjohnson12 3y ago
Private equity (I have no idea, I'm also a programmer)
- me_me_me 3y ago
  Principal Engineer if software related
philomath_mn 3y ago
Professional Engineer: https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe
jmholla 3y ago
The PE [0] is an American engineering exam. You first take the FE [1], then must apprentice under someone for some length of time (I think ten years) to be allowed to take the PE. Then, once you pass that, you're considered a professional engineer. [0]: https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/ https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/ [1]: https://ncees.org/exams/fe-exam/ https://ncees.org/exams/fe-exam/
- taylodl 3y ago
  Correct, and this gets at the heart of the matter as to why I believe engineering colleges shouldn't be conferring degrees in computer science. Degrees in computer science should be conferred by the college of arts and sciences, typically by something such as the department of mathematical sciences. I'd be down with the creation of the role of software engineer, a bona fide engineering degree, having licensure similar to the PE. In fact, given how much software is running our lives, I'd say such licensure is long overdue.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    Texas tried it. Doesn't look like it worked out so well. https://pels.texas.gov/software.html https://pels.texas.gov/software.html
    - taylodl 3y ago
      When does anything Texas tries work out so well?! :) Seriously though, the biggest problem is separating knowledge of programming languages and libraries from actual software engineering. The challenge there is we don't have a good definition of software engineering and how we'd go about doing that. I think it'd be a great start if, as an industry, we actually sit down to figure out what software engineering is.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
        I hope we have a good definition of software engineering, since I have a degree in it, but I'm biased. https://www.computer.org/education/bodies-of-knowledge/software-engineering https://www.computer.org/education/bodies-of-knowledge/softw...
- StefanBatory 3y ago
  I skimmed at the topics of few them. It certainly seems impressive to me.
- vunderba 3y ago
csixty4 3y ago
It's a formal certification exam for engineering disciplines that need licensing. You usually have to pass two exams – FE (foundations of engineering) and PE (principles of engineering) before you can even be considered for a license.

pokeymcsnatch 3y ago

Meh you don't need a PE to be an engineer. That's stretching the gatekeeping too far. PE is valuable for a lot of things, but not necessary for a lot of actual engineering work. Is a trained and working electrical engineer not an engineer because a PE isn't necessary to design and build sensors, loggers, etc? PE essentially just means you can legally sign off on safety critical designs. Engineering is the application of math and physics to solve a problem. Anecdotally, the handful of PEs I know are the pencil-pusher types. They're engineers on paper, but a critical skill for engineering is actually building stuff.

burnished 3y ago
I mean, if someone answers 'no, got a couple years before I'm eligible', or 'no, I don't need it for this line of work', you still probably got an idea of whether this person works in an engineering discipline.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago

And I remember when Sanitation Engineers in NYC were starting at $19,000/year while the average starting pay for a BSEE was $27,000. Really made you think!

caconym_ 3y ago

Individuals who have been (literally or figuratively) issued business cards that say "software engineer" on them have generally had no say in how the industry uses that language, and (frankly) if somebody harangued me about it as you are suggesting, I would put them on my list of puffed-up jerks to be avoided at all reasonable costs.

taylodl 3y ago
I don't harangue people about it unless they're being obnoxious and bragging about their "engineer" title like they're something special. THEN I'll knock them down a couple notches. I've had the title Software Engineer more than a couple times. Each time I've joked with my boss and fellow employees that we're not actual engineers. The funny thing is both times it was at an actual engineering company having PEs - so you'd think they'd be more careful with that title!
- caconym_ 3y ago
  Yeah, that's fair. I definitely joke about it with folks whom I know have a sense of humor about such things...