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Sweden is a really amazing country! In addition to being a well functioning democracy it also has these features: * A flourishing market economy that has creat

by Yrlec 14y ago

Sweden is a really amazing country! In addition to being a well functioning democracy it also has these features: * A flourishing market economy that has created everything from IKEA and H&M to Spotify and Skype. * Free health-care * Free college education * Low corruption * A well functioning justice system (practically no patent trolls!) It certainly has it's problems but compared to other countries it is truly amazing how it has managed to balance social well-fare and capitalism. Disclosure: I am Swedish.

kryptiskt 14y ago
> (practically no patent trolls!) There is Håkan Lans, probably the patent troll with the best PR in the world.
- Yrlec 14y ago
  But he's suing in the U.S. Not in Sweden.
T-A 14y ago
It also has the FRA law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA_law which lets it legally do what it wants to prevent other governments from doing. Because they are, you know, not the Swedish government. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
- Yrlec 14y ago
  I agree that the FRA-law is incredibly bad but overall I still think Sweden is a lot better at protecting civil liberties than most other nations.
- bjelkeman-again 14y ago
  Indeed, and we work on at rolling that back. A whole lot of other governments have the same stuff, I would hazard to guess that they all do (Eschelon for example) and Sweden has actually been open about the fact that it has it, and has shown how the oversight is being done, whereas with other governments this is all a secret. Not justifying it, but just saying that because Sweden has said it does this, doesn't mean it is the worst or the only government spying on Internet traffic. Indeed: I am a Swede.
noodleey 14y ago
Not sure if IKEA functions in favor of flourishing market economy or against it.
- Yrlec 14y ago
  In what way is IKEA not an example of a successful company?
  - pooriaazimi 14y ago
    He's not saying it's not a successful company (it certainly is). What he said is that IKEA, being a traditional-business-disruptive company (with its too much competitive pricing), is probably not much in favor of flourishing market economy.
    - forza 14y ago
      "with its too much competitive pricing" ...and its agressive tax planning.
  - T-A 14y ago
    IKEA is a very successful international company. It was founded in Sweden in 1943, when the system which you find so wonderful was not yet in place (taxes were low, for starters), and like all Swedish companies of that era it subsequently profited from being based in one of two European countries whose industrial base was not bombed to rubble during WWII, the other one being Switzerland. With Marshall aid flowing to Europe from the US, much of what needed to be bought was bought from those two countries. When taxes started rising, IKEA moved to greener pastures, and so did its founder. Ingvar Kamprad has been living in Switzerland since 1976. Guess why. I could go on and pick your list apart piece by piece, but will content myself with your most egregious piece of disinformation: Skype. As any hacker should know, the software was created by Estonians and acquired by the two "founders", Friis (a Dane) and Zennstrom (a Swede). They were nowhere near Sweden when any of that happened. They met in Denmark, where Zennstrom had moved to work (he wisely left Sweden even before graduating, did his last year in the US) and were both living in the Netherlands at the time. Last time I checked, Zennstrom, the closest thing to a Swedish Skype connection, lived in London and managed his holdings through holding companies in various low tax jurisdictions, which, needless to say, means not Sweden.
forza 14y ago
Sweden is outstanding if you ignore all the equally great countries in Europe and elsewhere. Sweden also used to be the standard-bearer for the Nordic model, this is not true anymore. There's plenty of reasons to avoid Sweden, but here are the top ones: * Everything is expensive. * Taxes are high. * Housing (more or less) can't be rented, buying is expensive. * Weather is cold and/or dark most of the year. * Culture life is relatively mediocre. * Foreigners generally perceive Swedes as guarded. * Racism is on the rise.
- dfc 14y ago
  " Sweden also used to be the standard-bearer for the Nordic model, this is not true anymore." Tackiest comment I've read this week...
- maayank 14y ago
  "Housing (more or less) can't be rented, buying is expensive." Is it plain non-availability? If so, then why? If not, then why? (I'm genuinely interested)
  - forza 14y ago
    Yes, non-availability. Basically high demand because of rapid urbanization, poor infrastructure, small and single city center. Low supply because of rent control on the first and second hand market, conversion of rentals and not enough new buildings. At least for the three large cities in Sweden.
    - berntb 14y ago
      A large factor is probably the oligopolies in the building industry, which earns lots of money with the present situation, despite little building going on. Regulatory capture in Sweden is still not counted as corruption, for some strange reason...
  - fromhet 14y ago
    (I am merely a layman, but native Swede) Lots of people want to move to Stockholm, Malmö and Göteborg (Gothenburg), so demand is rising faster than supply. But also, the laws that ensure that lower class people are to afford to live in nice places also makes it a bad investment to build new houses. It's great because the classes are more integrated, leading to more sense of community, less crime and less 'ghettos' riddled with crime and drugs. But on the other hand, since the government keeps prices reasonable, low prices makes it a less good investment. Sadly we can't have the best of two worlds, but I think a golden middle path ("lagom") is the way to go. Not regulated enough that no one will invest in houses, not free enough that the lower classes will (even more than it's now) have to move to ghettos.
probably_not_pc 14y ago
Yes and that will all change as you continue to embrace multiculturalism. These properties are only possible in a society with high cohesion. People are more than happy to support their own communities. People are more trusting of those who are racially or ethnically similar to them. http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/03/20/148946156/how-do-racial-attitudes-affect-opinions-about-the-health-care-overhaul http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/03/20/148946156/how-do-... The sorts of things you list are not easily attainable in America because of our multiculturalism. When I pay taxes, I don't know how that money will be used by people who probably do not share the same value or aspirations as I do. Different racial and ethnic groups in aggregate put different values on different things. Because of that, it's more dog-eat-dog here. People are less trusting of the government to promote the values they wish to see in their society. That's why Americans are wary of socialist programs. But it's not all bad. It's that culture of independence and competition which breeds innovation. It's the melting pot, the mixing and meshing and synthesizing of view points which breeds progress. It's the reason America is a technological and economic superpower. My point is: you have your thing, we have our thing. It's a trade off.
- fromhet 14y ago
  Please excuse me as I womit in my mouth. All right, done. Sorry for the stench everyone, but racism has a bad effect on my stomach. Multi-culti has been part of Sweden for a Long Time. Immigrants one of the big reasons why Sweden prospered in the 1900's. Turks, Italians and Finns are some of the places where large amounts of immigrants have come, and they've been employed by Swedish companies exporting everything from building material, textile, mining, cars. The list is long. Do you know how many people who aren't immigrants (or 2nd or 3rd generation)? ~7 million. That is less than NYC, in a whole country. We need all extra labour we can get. But theese things arent the least important. They really doesnt matter at all. There are two big reasons why people immigrate (here, at least): shelter from violence or opression and the hope of affording a decent life. To reject anyone coming from war who wants to live in peace would be the most inhumane thing to do. Ever. In war-ridden countries, you always live with the risk of you and your family being killed. And to reject someone who wants to earn enough to live a decent life? And who has the balls to move to a new country to make that dream come true? Immigration and multi-culturalism has brought so many great things to Sweden, and I am proud that my country let's many into it's borders.

by Yrlec 14y ago

kryptiskt 14y ago

> (practically no patent trolls!) There is Håkan Lans, probably the patent troll with the best PR in the world.

Yrlec 14y ago
But he's suing in the U.S. Not in Sweden.

T-A 14y ago

It also has the FRA law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA_law which lets it legally do what it wants to prevent other governments from doing. Because they are, you know, not the Swedish government. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

Yrlec 14y ago
I agree that the FRA-law is incredibly bad but overall I still think Sweden is a lot better at protecting civil liberties than most other nations.
bjelkeman-again 14y ago
Indeed, and we work on at rolling that back. A whole lot of other governments have the same stuff, I would hazard to guess that they all do (Eschelon for example) and Sweden has actually been open about the fact that it has it, and has shown how the oversight is being done, whereas with other governments this is all a secret. Not justifying it, but just saying that because Sweden has said it does this, doesn't mean it is the worst or the only government spying on Internet traffic. Indeed: I am a Swede.

noodleey 14y ago

Not sure if IKEA functions in favor of flourishing market economy or against it.

Yrlec 14y ago
In what way is IKEA not an example of a successful company?
- pooriaazimi 14y ago
  He's not saying it's not a successful company (it certainly is). What he said is that IKEA, being a traditional-business-disruptive company (with its too much competitive pricing), is probably not much in favor of flourishing market economy.
  - forza 14y ago
    "with its too much competitive pricing" ...and its agressive tax planning.
- T-A 14y ago
  IKEA is a very successful international company. It was founded in Sweden in 1943, when the system which you find so wonderful was not yet in place (taxes were low, for starters), and like all Swedish companies of that era it subsequently profited from being based in one of two European countries whose industrial base was not bombed to rubble during WWII, the other one being Switzerland. With Marshall aid flowing to Europe from the US, much of what needed to be bought was bought from those two countries. When taxes started rising, IKEA moved to greener pastures, and so did its founder. Ingvar Kamprad has been living in Switzerland since 1976. Guess why. I could go on and pick your list apart piece by piece, but will content myself with your most egregious piece of disinformation: Skype. As any hacker should know, the software was created by Estonians and acquired by the two "founders", Friis (a Dane) and Zennstrom (a Swede). They were nowhere near Sweden when any of that happened. They met in Denmark, where Zennstrom had moved to work (he wisely left Sweden even before graduating, did his last year in the US) and were both living in the Netherlands at the time. Last time I checked, Zennstrom, the closest thing to a Swedish Skype connection, lived in London and managed his holdings through holding companies in various low tax jurisdictions, which, needless to say, means not Sweden.

forza 14y ago

Sweden is outstanding if you ignore all the equally great countries in Europe and elsewhere. Sweden also used to be the standard-bearer for the Nordic model, this is not true anymore. There's plenty of reasons to avoid Sweden, but here are the top ones: * Everything is expensive. * Taxes are high. * Housing (more or less) can't be rented, buying is expensive. * Weather is cold and/or dark most of the year. * Culture life is relatively mediocre. * Foreigners generally perceive Swedes as guarded. * Racism is on the rise.

dfc 14y ago
" Sweden also used to be the standard-bearer for the Nordic model, this is not true anymore." Tackiest comment I've read this week...
maayank 14y ago
"Housing (more or less) can't be rented, buying is expensive." Is it plain non-availability? If so, then why? If not, then why? (I'm genuinely interested)
- forza 14y ago
  Yes, non-availability. Basically high demand because of rapid urbanization, poor infrastructure, small and single city center. Low supply because of rent control on the first and second hand market, conversion of rentals and not enough new buildings. At least for the three large cities in Sweden.
  - berntb 14y ago
    A large factor is probably the oligopolies in the building industry, which earns lots of money with the present situation, despite little building going on. Regulatory capture in Sweden is still not counted as corruption, for some strange reason...
- fromhet 14y ago
  (I am merely a layman, but native Swede) Lots of people want to move to Stockholm, Malmö and Göteborg (Gothenburg), so demand is rising faster than supply. But also, the laws that ensure that lower class people are to afford to live in nice places also makes it a bad investment to build new houses. It's great because the classes are more integrated, leading to more sense of community, less crime and less 'ghettos' riddled with crime and drugs. But on the other hand, since the government keeps prices reasonable, low prices makes it a less good investment. Sadly we can't have the best of two worlds, but I think a golden middle path ("lagom") is the way to go. Not regulated enough that no one will invest in houses, not free enough that the lower classes will (even more than it's now) have to move to ghettos.

probably_not_pc 14y ago

Yes and that will all change as you continue to embrace multiculturalism. These properties are only possible in a society with high cohesion. People are more than happy to support their own communities. People are more trusting of those who are racially or ethnically similar to them. http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/03/20/148946156/how-do-racial-attitudes-affect-opinions-about-the-health-care-overhaul http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/03/20/148946156/how-do-... The sorts of things you list are not easily attainable in America because of our multiculturalism. When I pay taxes, I don't know how that money will be used by people who probably do not share the same value or aspirations as I do. Different racial and ethnic groups in aggregate put different values on different things. Because of that, it's more dog-eat-dog here. People are less trusting of the government to promote the values they wish to see in their society. That's why Americans are wary of socialist programs. But it's not all bad. It's that culture of independence and competition which breeds innovation. It's the melting pot, the mixing and meshing and synthesizing of view points which breeds progress. It's the reason America is a technological and economic superpower. My point is: you have your thing, we have our thing. It's a trade off.

fromhet 14y ago
Please excuse me as I womit in my mouth. All right, done. Sorry for the stench everyone, but racism has a bad effect on my stomach. Multi-culti has been part of Sweden for a Long Time. Immigrants one of the big reasons why Sweden prospered in the 1900's. Turks, Italians and Finns are some of the places where large amounts of immigrants have come, and they've been employed by Swedish companies exporting everything from building material, textile, mining, cars. The list is long. Do you know how many people who aren't immigrants (or 2nd or 3rd generation)? ~7 million. That is less than NYC, in a whole country. We need all extra labour we can get. But theese things arent the least important. They really doesnt matter at all. There are two big reasons why people immigrate (here, at least): shelter from violence or opression and the hope of affording a decent life. To reject anyone coming from war who wants to live in peace would be the most inhumane thing to do. Ever. In war-ridden countries, you always live with the risk of you and your family being killed. And to reject someone who wants to earn enough to live a decent life? And who has the balls to move to a new country to make that dream come true? Immigration and multi-culturalism has brought so many great things to Sweden, and I am proud that my country let's many into it's borders.