4 ms·

Despite everything going on we're in a better place than we've ever been. Our children will likely be in an even better place.

EnigmaFlare 2y ago
Yes. People seem to have forgotten what a catastrophe the 20th century was. WWI, WWII, Spanish flu, famine in China, famine in USSR, Pol Pot. I've never seen predictions that climate change will be as bad as all that, yet people still kept having kids despite all those risks that actually eventuated and humanity overall flourished.
- piva00 2y ago
  None of those are close to the potential destructive power that a truly global catastrophe like climate change is. Pol Pot? Soviets? WW1 and WW2? Famines in China? You are comparing political events against the laws of thermodynamics in a global scale. Even the Spanish flu has an understandable/predictable time period for the tipping point where it will be stopped due to how viruses and adaptations to it occur. I don't think you comprehend the level and degree of difference between all of those events against the effects where laws of physics dictating how a planetary-level of change in energy retained will mess up with every single thing we as humanity need to survive on this Earth.
  - EnigmaFlare 2y ago
    You haven't quantified that comparison so you really don't have a clue. Just saying physics is more powerful than politics doesn't mean the outcome will be worse.
    - piva00 2y ago
      Do I really need to get you figures for how many gigajoules are required to heat up the whole world by 3-4C on average, studies on the effects of that energy added to the atmosphere and oceans, and the second and third order effects on the biosphere or are you smart enough to figure that one out? I assume folks on HN are smart enough to understand the basic premise of what I said, if needed I can track the data for you but you could probably do the same instead of a stupid rebuttal dressed as snarkiness.
      - EnigmaFlare 2y ago
        Of course that part's simple. What's not is "a planetary-level of change in energy retained will mess up with every single thing we as humanity need to survive on this Earth". Yes, you need to specify what that means because it's just emotional language that could mean anything. You probably don't know. I've never found anyone who knows what that means, or can even provide even the crudest estimate of the human impact of climate change such as number of deaths, financial cost, etc. that comes close to 20th century disasters.
mandmandam 2y ago
I don't think this hope is warranted. Our species is doing awful things to the planet: * Animals and plants are dying at a mind-boggling rate. This has consequences for us eventually too, but on it's own, this is an atrocity. * We're stuffing the air, sea and water with plastic, PFAs, insecticides, herbicides, etc. This will also have consequences for us. * Our polar ice is melting, our vital weather systems collapsing, our topsoil eroding, our old growth forest near forgotten. As noted above, our oceans are doing some terrifying shit. Consequences are imminent. * Inequality exacerbates all the above, and gives me serious doubt as to how our children will actually fare. Climate refugees are already a thing, and it could get soo much worse if our current path is maintained. A stunning proportion of our leaders, megacorps, media, banks, and institutions are making this all worse. They subsidize and invest in fossil fuels, arms, big agri etc. They provide cover for them, enable them, and profit from them. They savagely beat anyone fighting against their acts into submission; sometimes with mortal methods, sometimes just with smears and legal abuse. Have you considered any of this in your declaration of "we're in the best place ever"? I feel like we have a responsibility to our children and grandchildren to be honest about our fuck-ups.
- CorrectHorseBat 2y ago
  If we're not in the best place now, when in history was humanity ever in a better place? I don't think you realize where we're coming from. Poverty, famine, violence, child mortality etc are all globally lower than ever and on a downward trend. Yes climate change is a huge challenge, but it's not likely that we fuck up so bad that we undo all the progress from the last few hundred years (but also not impossible either, I'll give you that)
  - rickydroll 2y ago
    Mandmandam has made many good points. I feel that we won't be able to fix climate change until we reduce the political power of corporations and make them liable for their actions that have negative social and climate impacts.
piva00 2y ago
Or they won't and it might take a long time for societies to recover from the costs that climate change is bringing. Societies having to spend more in dealing with effects from climate change have to spend less in other stuff that are investments, stuff like education, R&D, healthcare, transportation; to build dikes, pumping stations, purchasing ever increasing food products after crop failures, rebuilding cities destroyed by climatic events (or moving whole cities/population centres that aren't possible to be rebuilt nor protected), building border defences to stop millions of climate refugees from immigrating to dwindling inhabitable spaces. All of that will have massive costs that will make life much harder for future generations. We don't know what our children futures will be because as humanity we never been through a truly global catastrophe affecting every single corner of the planet at the same time, not even World Wars were any close to the potential destructive power that fucking up our climate is.
mlrtime 2y ago
I must live in a bubble, the top rated comments here are all depressing. I don't know a single person that believe or thinks this way (that we're doomed). Maybe they do, but they don't say anything about it. Fwiw, I live in a rural area, have kids and most of my friends have families. We all are good people, that recycle and try to conserve and not be wasteful. But I spend almost 0 thoughts on this topic and it causes me no worries. Call it head in the sand if you want but I'd rather live this way than most of these comments.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  I'd call it blessed ignorance. Have a look at this for some very informed and depressing opinions: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/may/08/world-scientists-climate-failure-survey-global-temperature https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/may/08/...
- silverquiet 2y ago
  Group dynamics of doom are an interesting thing. At one point I worked for a company that was taken over by private equity who worked quite diligently to send all the jobs to India. Joining team meetings was a bit surreal; we all seemed to be trying to put a happy face on the situation (myself included) but occasionally there would be cracks. I'd also hear about people breaking down and crying in more private moments. > Call it head in the sand if you want but I'd rather live this way than most of these comments. I think denial is an important human quality; ultimately, we are all doomed anyway. It's something I've never been all that good at. I certainly see the dichotomy between those that have children and those that don't. I'm sure there are selection affects there regarding optimism, but if you have children, it's very hard to believe that they will face terrible hardship in the future. But the data is the data, regardless of our belief.
  - mlrtime 2y ago
    I would say it is more of a mindful philosophy. Worry about the things you have control over, don't worry about things you don't. Do what makes you happy and don't harm others. The problem with these comments here are that some people suggest that having kids, having a car, a house, or occasionally flying, etc... is harming other people. Humans are not wired for this risk calculation, even so most are doubtful this is a forgone conclusion. Further, most people (That I know) are not choosing a path based on data and charts. They are happy if the bills are paid, kids are in a good school, little crime and plenty of food TODAY. So I don't think it is denial, it is a philosophy that allows us to live a fulfilled life, not one out of denial and dispair.

EnigmaFlare 2y ago

Yes. People seem to have forgotten what a catastrophe the 20th century was. WWI, WWII, Spanish flu, famine in China, famine in USSR, Pol Pot. I've never seen predictions that climate change will be as bad as all that, yet people still kept having kids despite all those risks that actually eventuated and humanity overall flourished.

piva00 2y ago
None of those are close to the potential destructive power that a truly global catastrophe like climate change is. Pol Pot? Soviets? WW1 and WW2? Famines in China? You are comparing political events against the laws of thermodynamics in a global scale. Even the Spanish flu has an understandable/predictable time period for the tipping point where it will be stopped due to how viruses and adaptations to it occur. I don't think you comprehend the level and degree of difference between all of those events against the effects where laws of physics dictating how a planetary-level of change in energy retained will mess up with every single thing we as humanity need to survive on this Earth.
- EnigmaFlare 2y ago
  You haven't quantified that comparison so you really don't have a clue. Just saying physics is more powerful than politics doesn't mean the outcome will be worse.
  - piva00 2y ago
    Do I really need to get you figures for how many gigajoules are required to heat up the whole world by 3-4C on average, studies on the effects of that energy added to the atmosphere and oceans, and the second and third order effects on the biosphere or are you smart enough to figure that one out? I assume folks on HN are smart enough to understand the basic premise of what I said, if needed I can track the data for you but you could probably do the same instead of a stupid rebuttal dressed as snarkiness.
    - EnigmaFlare 2y ago
      Of course that part's simple. What's not is "a planetary-level of change in energy retained will mess up with every single thing we as humanity need to survive on this Earth". Yes, you need to specify what that means because it's just emotional language that could mean anything. You probably don't know. I've never found anyone who knows what that means, or can even provide even the crudest estimate of the human impact of climate change such as number of deaths, financial cost, etc. that comes close to 20th century disasters.

mandmandam 2y ago

I don't think this hope is warranted. Our species is doing awful things to the planet: * Animals and plants are dying at a mind-boggling rate. This has consequences for us eventually too, but on it's own, this is an atrocity. * We're stuffing the air, sea and water with plastic, PFAs, insecticides, herbicides, etc. This will also have consequences for us. * Our polar ice is melting, our vital weather systems collapsing, our topsoil eroding, our old growth forest near forgotten. As noted above, our oceans are doing some terrifying shit. Consequences are imminent. * Inequality exacerbates all the above, and gives me serious doubt as to how our children will actually fare. Climate refugees are already a thing, and it could get soo much worse if our current path is maintained. A stunning proportion of our leaders, megacorps, media, banks, and institutions are making this all worse. They subsidize and invest in fossil fuels, arms, big agri etc. They provide cover for them, enable them, and profit from them. They savagely beat anyone fighting against their acts into submission; sometimes with mortal methods, sometimes just with smears and legal abuse. Have you considered any of this in your declaration of "we're in the best place ever"? I feel like we have a responsibility to our children and grandchildren to be honest about our fuck-ups.

CorrectHorseBat 2y ago
If we're not in the best place now, when in history was humanity ever in a better place? I don't think you realize where we're coming from. Poverty, famine, violence, child mortality etc are all globally lower than ever and on a downward trend. Yes climate change is a huge challenge, but it's not likely that we fuck up so bad that we undo all the progress from the last few hundred years (but also not impossible either, I'll give you that)
- rickydroll 2y ago
  Mandmandam has made many good points. I feel that we won't be able to fix climate change until we reduce the political power of corporations and make them liable for their actions that have negative social and climate impacts.

piva00 2y ago

Or they won't and it might take a long time for societies to recover from the costs that climate change is bringing. Societies having to spend more in dealing with effects from climate change have to spend less in other stuff that are investments, stuff like education, R&D, healthcare, transportation; to build dikes, pumping stations, purchasing ever increasing food products after crop failures, rebuilding cities destroyed by climatic events (or moving whole cities/population centres that aren't possible to be rebuilt nor protected), building border defences to stop millions of climate refugees from immigrating to dwindling inhabitable spaces. All of that will have massive costs that will make life much harder for future generations. We don't know what our children futures will be because as humanity we never been through a truly global catastrophe affecting every single corner of the planet at the same time, not even World Wars were any close to the potential destructive power that fucking up our climate is.

mlrtime 2y ago

I must live in a bubble, the top rated comments here are all depressing. I don't know a single person that believe or thinks this way (that we're doomed). Maybe they do, but they don't say anything about it. Fwiw, I live in a rural area, have kids and most of my friends have families. We all are good people, that recycle and try to conserve and not be wasteful. But I spend almost 0 thoughts on this topic and it causes me no worries. Call it head in the sand if you want but I'd rather live this way than most of these comments.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
I'd call it blessed ignorance. Have a look at this for some very informed and depressing opinions: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/may/08/world-scientists-climate-failure-survey-global-temperature https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/may/08/...
silverquiet 2y ago
Group dynamics of doom are an interesting thing. At one point I worked for a company that was taken over by private equity who worked quite diligently to send all the jobs to India. Joining team meetings was a bit surreal; we all seemed to be trying to put a happy face on the situation (myself included) but occasionally there would be cracks. I'd also hear about people breaking down and crying in more private moments. > Call it head in the sand if you want but I'd rather live this way than most of these comments. I think denial is an important human quality; ultimately, we are all doomed anyway. It's something I've never been all that good at. I certainly see the dichotomy between those that have children and those that don't. I'm sure there are selection affects there regarding optimism, but if you have children, it's very hard to believe that they will face terrible hardship in the future. But the data is the data, regardless of our belief.
- mlrtime 2y ago
  I would say it is more of a mindful philosophy. Worry about the things you have control over, don't worry about things you don't. Do what makes you happy and don't harm others. The problem with these comments here are that some people suggest that having kids, having a car, a house, or occasionally flying, etc... is harming other people. Humans are not wired for this risk calculation, even so most are doubtful this is a forgone conclusion. Further, most people (That I know) are not choosing a path based on data and charts. They are happy if the bills are paid, kids are in a good school, little crime and plenty of food TODAY. So I don't think it is denial, it is a philosophy that allows us to live a fulfilled life, not one out of denial and dispair.