3 ms·

Isn't Java better than Swift/C# ? (more open, green threads, better ecosystem).

pjc50 2y ago
Debateable; I much prefer the dotnet ecosystem, even if it's less open. I suspect green threads vs C# async is another matter of taste as well. Plus Oracle is a much more annoying overlord for Java.
alternatex 2y ago
Someone prefers Java over Swift/C#? Now I've seen everything.
kryptiskt 2y ago
C# has value types, stackalloc, simpler FFI and a rich SIMD API, offering far better control for low-level code than Java. I don't feel green threads is a system level concern, and while Java's ecosystem is huge, it's also very enterprisey. Also, I'd disagree with more open, C# is under a more permissive license and Oracle has actually been litigious over Java.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  While I also favour C# over Java, the languages, the runtimes it is a bit different, given the wide spectrum of JVM implementations in the wild. Lets not forget that C# only exists because Sun won the lawsuit over J++, where several C# features were born (J/Direct => P/Invoke, events, JFC => Windows Forms, COM support), and Ext-VOS (the COM next generation runtime) paper refers to J++, before COOL became C#, and J# was introduced as migration path from J++. Ironically, after all these years, as means to keep Azure relevant for the Java community, Microsoft has become a OpenJDK contributor by acquiring jClarity, including ARM support on Windows, better escape analysis, and has their own distribution. And VSCode plugins for Java, developed in collaboration with Red-Hat, are much better than C# Dev Kit, without requiring a Microsoft account.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    The only features DevKit offers are Visual Studio style solution and test explorers. You don't need either DevKit or a Microsoft account to use base C# extension. The description is confusing though. I suppose they did the whole "rebrand" thing because for years everyone thought poorly of experience of writing C# in VSC while it has always been semi-decent (depending on your skills) and got better recently, especially after moving to Roslyn-based LSP from Omnisharp.
naasking 2y ago
How is Java more open than C#?
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Its features are driven by a consortium of Java companies, even if Oracle does the majority of the development. This allows for a spectrum of JVM implementations, where basically any CPU capable of running some form of Java implementation has a JDK available. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines Likewise, most frameworks are driven by set of companies, based on industry standards, where .NET due to its culture, most Microsoft shops tend to only adopt what comes from Microsoft. It is a long discussion problem in the .NET community that when many FOSS projects finally manage to get enterprise adoption, Microsoft ends up coming with their own solution, which said enterprises then switch to, thus killing those FOSS efforts. Listen to big podcasts like .NET Rocks, where this tends to be often discussed with their guests.
  - naasking 2y ago
    I don't see how any of that means that C# is less open. Microsoft drives C# feature evolution from community feedback, so is that less open than a consortium of commercial interests? Does Microsoft somehow prevent anyone from developing a CLR implementation for CPUs they don't support? The only reason the JVM is everywhere is because they had first-mover advantage. How does Microsoft developing their own solution to a problem "kill" FOSS efforts, exactly? Microsoft's solutions are almost all also FOSS. Is competition some kind of inherent problem? Or is a large corporation creating and maintaining FOSS a problem? Why aren't you annoyed at those enterprises that started adopting the original FOSS projects, but didn't contribute dev time to maintaining them? Instead you're annoyed at Microsoft for creating its own FOSS and paying to maintain it for the community for free. I just find most objections to .NET so bizarre, it's almost always knee-jerk Microsoft hate.
    - taylodl 2y ago
      It's been 25 years since the release of C# and 30 since the release of Java. The fact C# isn't everywhere Java is has nothing to do with "first-mover advantage" as you call it but is due to the fact that C# is open-source software, which is not the same as Free Software. Java, even Oracle's Java, is controlled by the community; .NET is controlled by Microsoft. That's the difference.

Debateable; I much prefer the dotnet ecosystem, even if it's less open. I suspect green threads vs C# async is another matter of taste as well. Plus Oracle is a much more annoying overlord for Java.

alternatex 2y ago

Someone prefers Java over Swift/C#? Now I've seen everything.

kryptiskt 2y ago

C# has value types, stackalloc, simpler FFI and a rich SIMD API, offering far better control for low-level code than Java. I don't feel green threads is a system level concern, and while Java's ecosystem is huge, it's also very enterprisey. Also, I'd disagree with more open, C# is under a more permissive license and Oracle has actually been litigious over Java.

pjmlp 2y ago
While I also favour C# over Java, the languages, the runtimes it is a bit different, given the wide spectrum of JVM implementations in the wild. Lets not forget that C# only exists because Sun won the lawsuit over J++, where several C# features were born (J/Direct => P/Invoke, events, JFC => Windows Forms, COM support), and Ext-VOS (the COM next generation runtime) paper refers to J++, before COOL became C#, and J# was introduced as migration path from J++. Ironically, after all these years, as means to keep Azure relevant for the Java community, Microsoft has become a OpenJDK contributor by acquiring jClarity, including ARM support on Windows, better escape analysis, and has their own distribution. And VSCode plugins for Java, developed in collaboration with Red-Hat, are much better than C# Dev Kit, without requiring a Microsoft account.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  The only features DevKit offers are Visual Studio style solution and test explorers. You don't need either DevKit or a Microsoft account to use base C# extension. The description is confusing though. I suppose they did the whole "rebrand" thing because for years everyone thought poorly of experience of writing C# in VSC while it has always been semi-decent (depending on your skills) and got better recently, especially after moving to Roslyn-based LSP from Omnisharp.

naasking 2y ago

How is Java more open than C#?

pjmlp 2y ago
Its features are driven by a consortium of Java companies, even if Oracle does the majority of the development. This allows for a spectrum of JVM implementations, where basically any CPU capable of running some form of Java implementation has a JDK available. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines Likewise, most frameworks are driven by set of companies, based on industry standards, where .NET due to its culture, most Microsoft shops tend to only adopt what comes from Microsoft. It is a long discussion problem in the .NET community that when many FOSS projects finally manage to get enterprise adoption, Microsoft ends up coming with their own solution, which said enterprises then switch to, thus killing those FOSS efforts. Listen to big podcasts like .NET Rocks, where this tends to be often discussed with their guests.
- naasking 2y ago
  I don't see how any of that means that C# is less open. Microsoft drives C# feature evolution from community feedback, so is that less open than a consortium of commercial interests? Does Microsoft somehow prevent anyone from developing a CLR implementation for CPUs they don't support? The only reason the JVM is everywhere is because they had first-mover advantage. How does Microsoft developing their own solution to a problem "kill" FOSS efforts, exactly? Microsoft's solutions are almost all also FOSS. Is competition some kind of inherent problem? Or is a large corporation creating and maintaining FOSS a problem? Why aren't you annoyed at those enterprises that started adopting the original FOSS projects, but didn't contribute dev time to maintaining them? Instead you're annoyed at Microsoft for creating its own FOSS and paying to maintain it for the community for free. I just find most objections to .NET so bizarre, it's almost always knee-jerk Microsoft hate.
  - taylodl 2y ago
    It's been 25 years since the release of C# and 30 since the release of Java. The fact C# isn't everywhere Java is has nothing to do with "first-mover advantage" as you call it but is due to the fact that C# is open-source software, which is not the same as Free Software. Java, even Oracle's Java, is controlled by the community; .NET is controlled by Microsoft. That's the difference.