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Y'all missing the point in this: - I hired a company to do some construction work and in that particular location, due to how the contracts were set, I could o

Y'all missing the point in this: - I hired a company to do some construction work and in that particular location, due to how the contracts were set, I could only get union work. Expensive and no over time. - In another location which did not had this kind of restriction, I hired another company that was not unionized: they worked longer hours and as a result finished faster. Also their hourly rates were lower. Point being, in a non-union market you can do a lot more faster. And to get to the financial issue, all hours were paid, so just in case it is not clear, there was never a question of not wanting to pay overtime. The question was why I should pay ~20-25% more for the same work?

ok_dad 2y ago
Have you ever researched the difference between the companies, the workers, how satisfied they are, how much they are paid, and why it was a quarter cheaper? You keep saying how the union affected you for your two projects, and how the union was the bad guys because you had to spend more time and money. Did you ever think that perhaps the workers at the union company could have been secure in their jobs, happy with their work/life balance and that the workers at the other company could be beaten down, pushed too hard, paid too little? In any case, your few experiences could be caused by a lot of stuff, perhaps not even the union! I don't know, without more research. Your particular story is from your perspective only, and doesn't even delve into any other reasons this could have happened, like local noise ordnances or something. This is my point: you don't care about the human cost of your entrepreneurial enterprises, and that is in my opinion the reason that America seems to be infighting and "going downhill" as they say. Greed, an uncaring attitude about others, and narcissistic "me me me" behavior is the problem, not a few workers trying to get a bigger cut. Unions aren't the enemy, those who would attempt to take advantage of workers are. America is only strong if we're all strong, not just a few tenths of a percent at the top. I am not replying any more to this thread, all I have to say was said here.
- ExoticPearTree 2y ago
  You do know that you can switch jobs if you don't like the one you're in at the moment, right? And it is not my problem with how much someone if paid, really. I put out a request for work, companies bid, the cheapest one overall wins. That's how the free market works. And sure, believe whatever you want, but getting the best deal possible is not going to be the end of the US :)
  - Hikikomori 2y ago
    Why would it matter if they can switch jobs or not when all jobs would exploit workers the same way in your non union ideal.
    - ExoticPearTree 2y ago
      No one is exploiting anyone. As a free individual you agree or not to be paid a certain amount of money for a unit of work - an hour in the majority of cases. The only reason unions exist is so they can extort business owners into paying more than the market is willing to pay for that unit of work. And the fact that as a business owner you can't easily fire a unionized employee is the worst thing possible. You can downvote me to oblivion, but unions are cancer and they need to be abolished.
      - Hikikomori 2y ago
        Ah yes, American capitalism well known for not exploiting anyone.
      - int_19h 2y ago
        What do you mean by "extort", exactly? Refusing to perform work for a pay that is too low is pretty much the essence of free market. Why are you okay when individuals do it separately, but suddenly not okay when they band together?
        ExoticPearTree 2y ago
        They band together and then they be like: we want 50% wage increase or we all quit and you lose a lot of money in the process. This is what I mean by extort.
        int_19h 2y ago
        How is that extortion, exactly? They are merely refusing to trade their labor for the price offered. This is just basic negotiation, a fundamental mechanism of any free market. The only reason to be offended by it specifically when people do it collectively rather than individually is because in the former case they actually have enough bargaining power vs their employer to get a better price for their labor. That is, because the market is "too free" to produce the desired (low) price of labor.

ok_dad 2y ago

Have you ever researched the difference between the companies, the workers, how satisfied they are, how much they are paid, and why it was a quarter cheaper? You keep saying how the union affected you for your two projects, and how the union was the bad guys because you had to spend more time and money. Did you ever think that perhaps the workers at the union company could have been secure in their jobs, happy with their work/life balance and that the workers at the other company could be beaten down, pushed too hard, paid too little? In any case, your few experiences could be caused by a lot of stuff, perhaps not even the union! I don't know, without more research. Your particular story is from your perspective only, and doesn't even delve into any other reasons this could have happened, like local noise ordnances or something. This is my point: you don't care about the human cost of your entrepreneurial enterprises, and that is in my opinion the reason that America seems to be infighting and "going downhill" as they say. Greed, an uncaring attitude about others, and narcissistic "me me me" behavior is the problem, not a few workers trying to get a bigger cut. Unions aren't the enemy, those who would attempt to take advantage of workers are. America is only strong if we're all strong, not just a few tenths of a percent at the top. I am not replying any more to this thread, all I have to say was said here.

ExoticPearTree 2y ago
You do know that you can switch jobs if you don't like the one you're in at the moment, right? And it is not my problem with how much someone if paid, really. I put out a request for work, companies bid, the cheapest one overall wins. That's how the free market works. And sure, believe whatever you want, but getting the best deal possible is not going to be the end of the US :)
- Hikikomori 2y ago
  Why would it matter if they can switch jobs or not when all jobs would exploit workers the same way in your non union ideal.
  - ExoticPearTree 2y ago
    No one is exploiting anyone. As a free individual you agree or not to be paid a certain amount of money for a unit of work - an hour in the majority of cases. The only reason unions exist is so they can extort business owners into paying more than the market is willing to pay for that unit of work. And the fact that as a business owner you can't easily fire a unionized employee is the worst thing possible. You can downvote me to oblivion, but unions are cancer and they need to be abolished.
    - Hikikomori 2y ago
      Ah yes, American capitalism well known for not exploiting anyone.
    - int_19h 2y ago
      What do you mean by "extort", exactly? Refusing to perform work for a pay that is too low is pretty much the essence of free market. Why are you okay when individuals do it separately, but suddenly not okay when they band together?
      - ExoticPearTree 2y ago
        They band together and then they be like: we want 50% wage increase or we all quit and you lose a lot of money in the process. This is what I mean by extort.
        int_19h 2y ago
        How is that extortion, exactly? They are merely refusing to trade their labor for the price offered. This is just basic negotiation, a fundamental mechanism of any free market. The only reason to be offended by it specifically when people do it collectively rather than individually is because in the former case they actually have enough bargaining power vs their employer to get a better price for their labor. That is, because the market is "too free" to produce the desired (low) price of labor.