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> Now tell me how is good for me, as a company that needs stuff done, to use union workers? Because in a race to the bottom, even the winner ends up in shit. T

by ok_dad 2y ago

> Now tell me how is good for me, as a company that needs stuff done, to use union workers? Because in a race to the bottom, even the winner ends up in shit. The reason America is turning to crap now is because everyone is just out for themselves, and that's mostly folks like you who just want to get stuff done cheaply. Unions may not be the answer for your company, but please at least treat your workers like they matter, and pay them better than you think you should, because they are your company, they are America, and the rampant evisceration of the middle/working/blue collar class by the greedy corpos will destroy us all before anything else. I truly don't understand how businesspeople cannot understand that humans are your most important resource. You run roughshod over them for a bit more profit. It's perplexing!

ExoticPearTree 2y ago
Y'all missing the point in this: - I hired a company to do some construction work and in that particular location, due to how the contracts were set, I could only get union work. Expensive and no over time. - In another location which did not had this kind of restriction, I hired another company that was not unionized: they worked longer hours and as a result finished faster. Also their hourly rates were lower. Point being, in a non-union market you can do a lot more faster. And to get to the financial issue, all hours were paid, so just in case it is not clear, there was never a question of not wanting to pay overtime. The question was why I should pay ~20-25% more for the same work?
- ok_dad 2y ago
  Have you ever researched the difference between the companies, the workers, how satisfied they are, how much they are paid, and why it was a quarter cheaper? You keep saying how the union affected you for your two projects, and how the union was the bad guys because you had to spend more time and money. Did you ever think that perhaps the workers at the union company could have been secure in their jobs, happy with their work/life balance and that the workers at the other company could be beaten down, pushed too hard, paid too little? In any case, your few experiences could be caused by a lot of stuff, perhaps not even the union! I don't know, without more research. Your particular story is from your perspective only, and doesn't even delve into any other reasons this could have happened, like local noise ordnances or something. This is my point: you don't care about the human cost of your entrepreneurial enterprises, and that is in my opinion the reason that America seems to be infighting and "going downhill" as they say. Greed, an uncaring attitude about others, and narcissistic "me me me" behavior is the problem, not a few workers trying to get a bigger cut. Unions aren't the enemy, those who would attempt to take advantage of workers are. America is only strong if we're all strong, not just a few tenths of a percent at the top. I am not replying any more to this thread, all I have to say was said here.
  - ExoticPearTree 2y ago
    You do know that you can switch jobs if you don't like the one you're in at the moment, right? And it is not my problem with how much someone if paid, really. I put out a request for work, companies bid, the cheapest one overall wins. That's how the free market works. And sure, believe whatever you want, but getting the best deal possible is not going to be the end of the US :)
    - Hikikomori 2y ago
      Why would it matter if they can switch jobs or not when all jobs would exploit workers the same way in your non union ideal.
      - ExoticPearTree 2y ago
        No one is exploiting anyone. As a free individual you agree or not to be paid a certain amount of money for a unit of work - an hour in the majority of cases. The only reason unions exist is so they can extort business owners into paying more than the market is willing to pay for that unit of work. And the fact that as a business owner you can't easily fire a unionized employee is the worst thing possible. You can downvote me to oblivion, but unions are cancer and they need to be abolished.
        Hikikomori 2y ago
        Ah yes, American capitalism well known for not exploiting anyone.
        int_19h 2y ago
        What do you mean by "extort", exactly? Refusing to perform work for a pay that is too low is pretty much the essence of free market. Why are you okay when individuals do it separately, but suddenly not okay when they band together?
        ExoticPearTree 2y ago

by ok_dad 2y ago

ExoticPearTree 2y ago

Y'all missing the point in this: - I hired a company to do some construction work and in that particular location, due to how the contracts were set, I could only get union work. Expensive and no over time. - In another location which did not had this kind of restriction, I hired another company that was not unionized: they worked longer hours and as a result finished faster. Also their hourly rates were lower. Point being, in a non-union market you can do a lot more faster. And to get to the financial issue, all hours were paid, so just in case it is not clear, there was never a question of not wanting to pay overtime. The question was why I should pay ~20-25% more for the same work?

ok_dad 2y ago
Have you ever researched the difference between the companies, the workers, how satisfied they are, how much they are paid, and why it was a quarter cheaper? You keep saying how the union affected you for your two projects, and how the union was the bad guys because you had to spend more time and money. Did you ever think that perhaps the workers at the union company could have been secure in their jobs, happy with their work/life balance and that the workers at the other company could be beaten down, pushed too hard, paid too little? In any case, your few experiences could be caused by a lot of stuff, perhaps not even the union! I don't know, without more research. Your particular story is from your perspective only, and doesn't even delve into any other reasons this could have happened, like local noise ordnances or something. This is my point: you don't care about the human cost of your entrepreneurial enterprises, and that is in my opinion the reason that America seems to be infighting and "going downhill" as they say. Greed, an uncaring attitude about others, and narcissistic "me me me" behavior is the problem, not a few workers trying to get a bigger cut. Unions aren't the enemy, those who would attempt to take advantage of workers are. America is only strong if we're all strong, not just a few tenths of a percent at the top. I am not replying any more to this thread, all I have to say was said here.
- ExoticPearTree 2y ago
  You do know that you can switch jobs if you don't like the one you're in at the moment, right? And it is not my problem with how much someone if paid, really. I put out a request for work, companies bid, the cheapest one overall wins. That's how the free market works. And sure, believe whatever you want, but getting the best deal possible is not going to be the end of the US :)
  - Hikikomori 2y ago
    Why would it matter if they can switch jobs or not when all jobs would exploit workers the same way in your non union ideal.
    - ExoticPearTree 2y ago
      No one is exploiting anyone. As a free individual you agree or not to be paid a certain amount of money for a unit of work - an hour in the majority of cases. The only reason unions exist is so they can extort business owners into paying more than the market is willing to pay for that unit of work. And the fact that as a business owner you can't easily fire a unionized employee is the worst thing possible. You can downvote me to oblivion, but unions are cancer and they need to be abolished.
      - Hikikomori 2y ago
        Ah yes, American capitalism well known for not exploiting anyone.
      - int_19h 2y ago
        What do you mean by "extort", exactly? Refusing to perform work for a pay that is too low is pretty much the essence of free market. Why are you okay when individuals do it separately, but suddenly not okay when they band together?
        ExoticPearTree 2y ago