5 ms·

I am a migrant from a non-English-speaking country, and I used to be a journalist a long time ago. Even though I migrated many years ago, I am still surprised w

I am a migrant from a non-English-speaking country, and I used to be a journalist a long time ago. Even though I migrated many years ago, I am still surprised when I see spelling mistakes like the one in this article, which is right up there in the deck (the line just under the headline). Back in Italy, someone would be having a bad day over something like this, but in the English-speaking world it seems to be commonplace, even in major publications, corporate websites, etc. > Before Facebook or Twitter, there was Diaryland. But it’s creator just wasn’t a Zuckerberg and it faded into oblivion. I think that this is because English ortography is highly nonphonemic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonemic_orthography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonemic_orthography It's an interesting topic!

keiferski 2y ago
It’s mostly because of laziness and a hostility toward the idea of “correctness” in language use, and it goes back many, many decades. See John Simon’s book Paradigms Lost (from 1981!) for a brutally amusing take on these common errors. When it becomes socially unacceptable to insist on standards and correctness, people either don’t learn how to write properly - or they are cowed into silence when making corrections.
- denkmoon 2y ago
  What problem does this kind of correctness solve? We all understand what is meant by the sentence despite the flaw. I'm reasonably proficient at English when compared to my colleagues but unless they've made an error that dramatically changes the meaning of their sentence, correcting it achieves nothing in my experience.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    Because language isn’t about being understood by the lowest common denominator, it’s about expressing ideas and feelings. Sloppiness of language results in sloppiness of thought. If language were purely about being understood by others, then we culd rite lyke dis all da tyme. It is also just disgraceful and disrespectful toward something as magnificent and powerful as language, akin to scribbling on the Sistine Chapel ceiling. It’s one thing to know the rules and intelligently break them in a novel way, but the lack of correctness we’re talking about is merely laziness. Just to reiterate here: the issue isn’t so much about minor unintended errors, it’s about the attitude that minor errors are acceptable and that aspiring for some kind of excellence is discouraged.
    - ok_dad 2y ago
      > it’s about expressing ideas and feelings Yes, and spelling errors don't really matter to express yourself. > disgraceful and disrespectful toward something as magnificent and powerful as language If language wants to take that up with me, send him or her over to my place and I'll beat 'em up! But seriously, language is a tool, it's not a work of art. Things you make with language can be a work of art, so go read those instead of the misspelled crap that drives you to this level of anger. > it’s about the attitude You need to chill about other people's attitudes. You cannot affect other people, and you shouldn't let them make you see red like this. Other people's opinions and attitudes are none of your business, frankly.
      - keiferski 2y ago
        This is exactly the reply that always comes when someone defends standards. Every time. “It’s none of your business. Don’t worry about other people. Why are you so angry?” Etc. I speak English and am a part of a culture that speaks English. That gives me some extremely minor influence on that culture, as it does for you and anyone else. So I certainly can “affect other people.” Is it so hard to believe that some people like nice things, and that creating and maintaining nice things often requires adhering to certain rules and regulations, rather than unquestioning acceptance of the selfish whims of every individual?
        ok_dad 2y ago
        Maybe become an English teacher then, instead of ranting and raving in public. Go get a job as an editor at a paper and raise the standards. Do something like that, rather than get into other people's business. People act like this about folks who police arbitrary standards because it's distasteful. English is what the whole body of humans who speak English make it, not some random Council of English Grammar. Anytime I write or say anything, it's English, no matter if I fucked the grammer or speeling up. There should not be a monopoly on communication. Some people simply don't have the ability to do perfect English grammar. Neurodiverse people can have trouble saying the right thing or using the write words. I hope you understand that not only do people hate "grammar police" because you're annoying, but also because not everyone can, needs, or wants to speak perfect English. In closing: stop being pedantic, no one likes it. I hope all my errors keep you up at night. I'm not responding further, this conversation has run it's course.
- detinho 2y ago
  Sorry but, what is the mistake on the highlighted sentence? I'm not a native english speaker.
  - jml7c5 2y ago
    The second sentence contains "it's" instead of "its".
    - thejohnconway 2y ago
      Which is a stupid irregular rule that should be abandoned!
      - ok_dad 2y ago
        "it's" just means "it is" for everything else, there's "its" I believe that will get you out of 99% of the "it's vs its" problems you find in day to day life. Bonus: If you're almost sure you need "it's" but not totally, just read the sentence as "...blah blah IT IS blah blah..." and if that doesn't make sense use "its" instead. Edit: Some would gatekeep English, I don't personally care except that it seemed to give you a lot of stress and I hate to see someone upset, truly, so I thought I might help. I have a lot of trouble with grammar rules, too, so I have certain ways of thinking that I figure could help you and others. In reality, its or it's will read the same in your head and have further context as you read, so it doesn't really matter.
        aleph_minus_one 2y ago
        > "it's" just means "it is" > for everything else, there's "its" "it's" can also mean "it has".
        thejohnconway 2y ago
        I understand contractions, but “its” doesn’t track with possessive nouns, which is why this is such a pervasive “error”. English has some dumb rules that we don’t need to protect.
- agarsev 2y ago
  Dr. Geoff Lindsey just put out an interesting video on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6duEGj04Mg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6duEGj04Mg not tldr but provocative thought derived: why insist that "it's" as a possessive is wrong, when it follows an existing pattern (john's, everyone's) and speech doesn't make the distinction?
ginko 2y ago
I have to say the constant nitpicking and derailing over spelling/grammar mistakes in German forums is something I don't miss at all.
- defen 2y ago
  Is this a very subtle "Grammar Nazi" joke or an actual thing that happens?
  - ginko 2y ago
    Actual thing that happens.
- aethertron 2y ago
  Forums should have separate layers for the object-level discussion, and meta-discussion. Then people can zoom into a peculiar grammatical detail that takes their fancy, but the main thread of a topic can keep going uninterrupted. Then if a grammar discussion comes to a conclusion (as decided by the forum owner/editor-in-chief) it gets enforced on main threads thenceforth. (my reply would go on the meta layer)
- StefanBatory 2y ago
  Polish forums were the same. You'd have someone make a spelling error and everyone would just disregard their argument.
RamblingCTO 2y ago
Yeah same here. The amount of times I've seen "should of" is really staggering. How can you make this mistake in the first place?
theoldlove 2y ago
To be clear, you’re talking about it’s instead of the correct its, right?

keiferski 2y ago

It’s mostly because of laziness and a hostility toward the idea of “correctness” in language use, and it goes back many, many decades. See John Simon’s book Paradigms Lost (from 1981!) for a brutally amusing take on these common errors. When it becomes socially unacceptable to insist on standards and correctness, people either don’t learn how to write properly - or they are cowed into silence when making corrections.

denkmoon 2y ago
What problem does this kind of correctness solve? We all understand what is meant by the sentence despite the flaw. I'm reasonably proficient at English when compared to my colleagues but unless they've made an error that dramatically changes the meaning of their sentence, correcting it achieves nothing in my experience.
- keiferski 2y ago
  Because language isn’t about being understood by the lowest common denominator, it’s about expressing ideas and feelings. Sloppiness of language results in sloppiness of thought. If language were purely about being understood by others, then we culd rite lyke dis all da tyme. It is also just disgraceful and disrespectful toward something as magnificent and powerful as language, akin to scribbling on the Sistine Chapel ceiling. It’s one thing to know the rules and intelligently break them in a novel way, but the lack of correctness we’re talking about is merely laziness. Just to reiterate here: the issue isn’t so much about minor unintended errors, it’s about the attitude that minor errors are acceptable and that aspiring for some kind of excellence is discouraged.
  - ok_dad 2y ago
    > it’s about expressing ideas and feelings Yes, and spelling errors don't really matter to express yourself. > disgraceful and disrespectful toward something as magnificent and powerful as language If language wants to take that up with me, send him or her over to my place and I'll beat 'em up! But seriously, language is a tool, it's not a work of art. Things you make with language can be a work of art, so go read those instead of the misspelled crap that drives you to this level of anger. > it’s about the attitude You need to chill about other people's attitudes. You cannot affect other people, and you shouldn't let them make you see red like this. Other people's opinions and attitudes are none of your business, frankly.
    - keiferski 2y ago
      This is exactly the reply that always comes when someone defends standards. Every time. “It’s none of your business. Don’t worry about other people. Why are you so angry?” Etc. I speak English and am a part of a culture that speaks English. That gives me some extremely minor influence on that culture, as it does for you and anyone else. So I certainly can “affect other people.” Is it so hard to believe that some people like nice things, and that creating and maintaining nice things often requires adhering to certain rules and regulations, rather than unquestioning acceptance of the selfish whims of every individual?
      - ok_dad 2y ago
        Maybe become an English teacher then, instead of ranting and raving in public. Go get a job as an editor at a paper and raise the standards. Do something like that, rather than get into other people's business. People act like this about folks who police arbitrary standards because it's distasteful. English is what the whole body of humans who speak English make it, not some random Council of English Grammar. Anytime I write or say anything, it's English, no matter if I fucked the grammer or speeling up. There should not be a monopoly on communication. Some people simply don't have the ability to do perfect English grammar. Neurodiverse people can have trouble saying the right thing or using the write words. I hope you understand that not only do people hate "grammar police" because you're annoying, but also because not everyone can, needs, or wants to speak perfect English. In closing: stop being pedantic, no one likes it. I hope all my errors keep you up at night. I'm not responding further, this conversation has run it's course.
detinho 2y ago
Sorry but, what is the mistake on the highlighted sentence? I'm not a native english speaker.
- jml7c5 2y ago
  The second sentence contains "it's" instead of "its".
  - thejohnconway 2y ago
    Which is a stupid irregular rule that should be abandoned!
    - ok_dad 2y ago
      "it's" just means "it is" for everything else, there's "its" I believe that will get you out of 99% of the "it's vs its" problems you find in day to day life. Bonus: If you're almost sure you need "it's" but not totally, just read the sentence as "...blah blah IT IS blah blah..." and if that doesn't make sense use "its" instead. Edit: Some would gatekeep English, I don't personally care except that it seemed to give you a lot of stress and I hate to see someone upset, truly, so I thought I might help. I have a lot of trouble with grammar rules, too, so I have certain ways of thinking that I figure could help you and others. In reality, its or it's will read the same in your head and have further context as you read, so it doesn't really matter.
      - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
        > "it's" just means "it is" > for everything else, there's "its" "it's" can also mean "it has".
      - thejohnconway 2y ago
        I understand contractions, but “its” doesn’t track with possessive nouns, which is why this is such a pervasive “error”. English has some dumb rules that we don’t need to protect.
agarsev 2y ago
Dr. Geoff Lindsey just put out an interesting video on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6duEGj04Mg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6duEGj04Mg not tldr but provocative thought derived: why insist that "it's" as a possessive is wrong, when it follows an existing pattern (john's, everyone's) and speech doesn't make the distinction?

ginko 2y ago

I have to say the constant nitpicking and derailing over spelling/grammar mistakes in German forums is something I don't miss at all.

defen 2y ago
Is this a very subtle "Grammar Nazi" joke or an actual thing that happens?
- ginko 2y ago
  Actual thing that happens.
aethertron 2y ago
Forums should have separate layers for the object-level discussion, and meta-discussion. Then people can zoom into a peculiar grammatical detail that takes their fancy, but the main thread of a topic can keep going uninterrupted. Then if a grammar discussion comes to a conclusion (as decided by the forum owner/editor-in-chief) it gets enforced on main threads thenceforth. (my reply would go on the meta layer)
StefanBatory 2y ago
Polish forums were the same. You'd have someone make a spelling error and everyone would just disregard their argument.

RamblingCTO 2y ago

Yeah same here. The amount of times I've seen "should of" is really staggering. How can you make this mistake in the first place?

theoldlove 2y ago

To be clear, you’re talking about it’s instead of the correct its, right?