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My oldest daughter could read at age four. By second grade, in a Texas public school, she liked to read Nancy Drew mysteries on her own. One day she came home f

My oldest daughter could read at age four. By second grade, in a Texas public school, she liked to read Nancy Drew mysteries on her own. One day she came home from school crying and told us she didn't want to go back -- she said she had got in trouble for reading her book. Her mom and I went to talk to the teacher. Our daughter had got "caught" reading a Nancy Drew book at her desk while the other kids -- many of whom couldn't read at age six -- struggled with their ABCs. The teacher took the book away from our daughter and shamed her in front of the other kids. The teacher told us that "policy" prohibited students reading "non-assigned" books at school. Our daughter was supposed to sit there bored waiting for the slowest kids to catch up. Public schools have a bureaucracy you can't really fight. We didn't make our daughter go back, we withdrew her from school the next day and told the principal we had to move. We homeschooled her, and our two other kids when they came along. No regrets. All of my kids obtained high school diplomas (not GEDs) by passing the ludicrously dumb state tests. Two went on to university. They all have jobs and support themselves, and continue to read for fun. John Taylor Gatto, a former teacher of the year, describes exactly how public school punishes and wipes out imagination and independent thinking, a process mostly completed by age nine when children give up on reading for fun. https://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html https://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html I'll add that I could also read at age four (thanks, dad!). I went to Catholic private school in the '60s. When the teachers found out I could already read in first grade they put me in a program with other kids who had got ahead of the curriculum. We would go to the school library for a couple of periods and choose our own books, then write up summaries. When I had to move to public school in 6th grade I almost immediately got punished the same way my daughter was -- told that I couldn't choose my own books and forced to read along the approved curriculum at the pace of the slowest kids in the class.

kqr 2y ago
Home schooling is illegal in my jurisdiction but this entire discussion is making me think about it more and more. A question though: does homeschooling require essentially that the entire family can be supported on one salary? (Either by one parent working and the other teaching, or two parents working but paying a full time tutor which becomes a 2-1=1 sort of thing anyway.)
- bruce511 2y ago
  Home schooling is a complex topic, and one end of a broad spectrum. I wasn't home schooled, but my wife did home school the kids to about grade 4, and yep, she didn't have a salary in that time. But home schooling is a nuclear option. For most people it's not a realistic option. Of course, as parents, we're always home schoolers, even if the kids are at school during the day. There are so many ways to stimulate and engage (especially younger) children. Reading is one avenue, but its not for everyone. Some get into cooking, or nature, (or programming) or music or art, or whatever. Interests change as they grow. Reading young is very empowering. My parents taught me to read before I went to school. Reading to very younger children helps them understand the concept of stories. (I read a chapter of Swiss Family Robinson to the kids when the oldest was like 6. Hint: some editing and commentary is required - it was written in a different age.) There are also schools with good teachers, and ones with crap teachers. Sometimes you get lucky. Some kids are good at adapting to adults not having their best day, others not as much.
- zarzavat 2y ago
  > does homeschooling require essentially that the entire family can be supported on one salary? Yes. The main purpose of government schools is to provide a place to park children so that their parents can be more economically efficient. At least in my country, the “learning” supposedly provided is a secondary priority (your country may be different). My government is very concerned that children go to school, they are somewhat less concerned about what happens when they get there.
  - gregjor 2y ago
    Yes that sums up the actual priorities. Day care first, obedience and indoctrination second, learning anything last. Montessori maybe a good option, but expensive and many schools have long waiting lists. I understand homeschooling doesn’t work economically for a lot of families. It did for us. We more or less unschooled without a specific curriculum — homeschooling doesn’t have to mean imitating what goes on in schools. Read John Holt and Ivan Illich for inspiration.
squigz 2y ago
The American public school system does indeed seem broken. Fixing it, like most other public institutions, is going to be difficult. For what it's worth, my experience in Canadian public schools was not at all like this.
globular-toast 2y ago
Your daughter did the right thing. I pray they didn't manage to squash her behaviour for good. I remember doing the same as her much later in school. I was reading Fight Club and had it in my bag. We had these sessions where we'd watch a pointless bullshit video for an hour about some common sense topic like "other people have different religions" or "don't stick your fingers in the plug socket". I just decided I'd had enough and turned around and quietly read my book instead. I didn't get into trouble but got some funny looks. I consider this a turning point for me. It's my life and it's ending one minute at a time!
bjornsing 2y ago
Interesting. Having grown up in Sweden during the 80-ties and 90-ties I’m very familiar with this attitude. Here and back then it was almost policy to hold gifted students back, to promote “equality”. But I thought the US would have a higher tolerance for ability. What do you think is the driving psychological force behind this attitude in US schools? In Sweden I’ve always thought it’s mainly a sort of crab mentality, semi-formalized in “the law of Jante”. But maybe there’s more to it, if it happens also in very individualistic cultures like the US? Sometimes I get a feeling that many people in the “helping business” have trouble with self-sufficient people in general, perhaps because it conflicts with their self-image as “helpers”. P.S. Homeschooling is illegal in Sweden.
- gregjor 2y ago
  When I was in school, a long time ago, schools “tracked” students into gifted, regular, and special needs classes. At least in California where I grew up. I’m sure that varied by school district because in the US schools get managed locally and funded by property taxes, leading to lots of variation in quality and available programs. At some point in the ‘70s tracking got abandoned. I think it happened because of a desire to eliminate inequality but I’m not sure — could have happened due to lack of funding. Americans have private school options but those get expensive so that’s mainly an upper-middle and upper class thing. The “no child left behind” idea mandated standardized tests and ranking teachers, which led to optimizing for the tests and grade inflation. Fortunately by the time I had kids we could homeschool. Religious fundamentalists paved the way in court, making it legal in most states, with different rules and levels of enforcement. I raised my kids mostly in Oregon, ultra liberal and lax about homeschooling.
  - squigz 2y ago
    Tracking can be problematic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_(education)#Disadvantages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_(education)#Disadvant...
- conductr 2y ago
  > What do you think is the driving psychological force behind this attitude in US schools? The curriculum is so prescriptive that it is really helpful if everyone progresses at the same pace.
latexr 2y ago
> The teacher took the book away from our daughter and shamed her in front of the other kids. The teacher told us that "policy" prohibited students reading "non-assigned" books at school. That’s a bad policy, but a worse teacher. They could’ve turned a blind eye. > We didn't make our daughter go back, we withdrew her from school the next day and told the principal we had to move. Why the lie? Was homeschooling prohibited where you lived, or something?
- gregjor 2y ago
  Simpler to lie about moving than deal with the bureaucracy. Every state has mandatory schooling and truancy laws. We planned to move out of Texas anyway. Easier to say we’re moving than try to get permission to homeschool my own child.
  - squigz 2y ago
    > my own child. I've never quite understood this focus. Do you think that because it's your child you should be able to do whatever you want?
    - blindriver 2y ago
      Actually, yes.
    - gregjor 2y ago
      No, not "whatever I want." I described taking my daughter out of a public school and legally homeschooling her. I didn't see any reason to explain that or discuss it with the school administration. If I quit a job I don't have to go to an exit interview. Same thing. As I mentioned we moved to Oregon soon after taking our daughter out of public school. Oregon legalized homeschooling in 1985, before my daughter was born. Texas legalized homeschooling in 1994, the same year we made that decision. We didn't see any need to deal with the public school bureaucracy -- that would kind of defeat the point of homeschooling. I think parents will generally choose to do whatever they think will best protect their child, or help their child succeed. If you don't understand that "focus" I will guess you don't have children.

kqr 2y ago

Home schooling is illegal in my jurisdiction but this entire discussion is making me think about it more and more. A question though: does homeschooling require essentially that the entire family can be supported on one salary? (Either by one parent working and the other teaching, or two parents working but paying a full time tutor which becomes a 2-1=1 sort of thing anyway.)

bruce511 2y ago
Home schooling is a complex topic, and one end of a broad spectrum. I wasn't home schooled, but my wife did home school the kids to about grade 4, and yep, she didn't have a salary in that time. But home schooling is a nuclear option. For most people it's not a realistic option. Of course, as parents, we're always home schoolers, even if the kids are at school during the day. There are so many ways to stimulate and engage (especially younger) children. Reading is one avenue, but its not for everyone. Some get into cooking, or nature, (or programming) or music or art, or whatever. Interests change as they grow. Reading young is very empowering. My parents taught me to read before I went to school. Reading to very younger children helps them understand the concept of stories. (I read a chapter of Swiss Family Robinson to the kids when the oldest was like 6. Hint: some editing and commentary is required - it was written in a different age.) There are also schools with good teachers, and ones with crap teachers. Sometimes you get lucky. Some kids are good at adapting to adults not having their best day, others not as much.
zarzavat 2y ago
> does homeschooling require essentially that the entire family can be supported on one salary? Yes. The main purpose of government schools is to provide a place to park children so that their parents can be more economically efficient. At least in my country, the “learning” supposedly provided is a secondary priority (your country may be different). My government is very concerned that children go to school, they are somewhat less concerned about what happens when they get there.
- gregjor 2y ago
  Yes that sums up the actual priorities. Day care first, obedience and indoctrination second, learning anything last. Montessori maybe a good option, but expensive and many schools have long waiting lists. I understand homeschooling doesn’t work economically for a lot of families. It did for us. We more or less unschooled without a specific curriculum — homeschooling doesn’t have to mean imitating what goes on in schools. Read John Holt and Ivan Illich for inspiration.

squigz 2y ago

The American public school system does indeed seem broken. Fixing it, like most other public institutions, is going to be difficult. For what it's worth, my experience in Canadian public schools was not at all like this.

globular-toast 2y ago

Your daughter did the right thing. I pray they didn't manage to squash her behaviour for good. I remember doing the same as her much later in school. I was reading Fight Club and had it in my bag. We had these sessions where we'd watch a pointless bullshit video for an hour about some common sense topic like "other people have different religions" or "don't stick your fingers in the plug socket". I just decided I'd had enough and turned around and quietly read my book instead. I didn't get into trouble but got some funny looks. I consider this a turning point for me. It's my life and it's ending one minute at a time!

bjornsing 2y ago

Interesting. Having grown up in Sweden during the 80-ties and 90-ties I’m very familiar with this attitude. Here and back then it was almost policy to hold gifted students back, to promote “equality”. But I thought the US would have a higher tolerance for ability. What do you think is the driving psychological force behind this attitude in US schools? In Sweden I’ve always thought it’s mainly a sort of crab mentality, semi-formalized in “the law of Jante”. But maybe there’s more to it, if it happens also in very individualistic cultures like the US? Sometimes I get a feeling that many people in the “helping business” have trouble with self-sufficient people in general, perhaps because it conflicts with their self-image as “helpers”. P.S. Homeschooling is illegal in Sweden.

gregjor 2y ago
When I was in school, a long time ago, schools “tracked” students into gifted, regular, and special needs classes. At least in California where I grew up. I’m sure that varied by school district because in the US schools get managed locally and funded by property taxes, leading to lots of variation in quality and available programs. At some point in the ‘70s tracking got abandoned. I think it happened because of a desire to eliminate inequality but I’m not sure — could have happened due to lack of funding. Americans have private school options but those get expensive so that’s mainly an upper-middle and upper class thing. The “no child left behind” idea mandated standardized tests and ranking teachers, which led to optimizing for the tests and grade inflation. Fortunately by the time I had kids we could homeschool. Religious fundamentalists paved the way in court, making it legal in most states, with different rules and levels of enforcement. I raised my kids mostly in Oregon, ultra liberal and lax about homeschooling.
- squigz 2y ago
  Tracking can be problematic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_(education)#Disadvantages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_(education)#Disadvant...
conductr 2y ago
> What do you think is the driving psychological force behind this attitude in US schools? The curriculum is so prescriptive that it is really helpful if everyone progresses at the same pace.

latexr 2y ago

> The teacher took the book away from our daughter and shamed her in front of the other kids. The teacher told us that "policy" prohibited students reading "non-assigned" books at school. That’s a bad policy, but a worse teacher. They could’ve turned a blind eye. > We didn't make our daughter go back, we withdrew her from school the next day and told the principal we had to move. Why the lie? Was homeschooling prohibited where you lived, or something?

gregjor 2y ago
Simpler to lie about moving than deal with the bureaucracy. Every state has mandatory schooling and truancy laws. We planned to move out of Texas anyway. Easier to say we’re moving than try to get permission to homeschool my own child.
- squigz 2y ago
  > my own child. I've never quite understood this focus. Do you think that because it's your child you should be able to do whatever you want?
  - blindriver 2y ago
    Actually, yes.
  - gregjor 2y ago
    No, not "whatever I want." I described taking my daughter out of a public school and legally homeschooling her. I didn't see any reason to explain that or discuss it with the school administration. If I quit a job I don't have to go to an exit interview. Same thing. As I mentioned we moved to Oregon soon after taking our daughter out of public school. Oregon legalized homeschooling in 1985, before my daughter was born. Texas legalized homeschooling in 1994, the same year we made that decision. We didn't see any need to deal with the public school bureaucracy -- that would kind of defeat the point of homeschooling. I think parents will generally choose to do whatever they think will best protect their child, or help their child succeed. If you don't understand that "focus" I will guess you don't have children.