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"Engineers" - ironically the term used in the software industry for people who never standardize anything, solve the same problem solved by other "engineers" ov

"Engineers" - ironically the term used in the software industry for people who never standardize anything, solve the same problem solved by other "engineers" over and over again (how many libraries do you need for arrays and vectors and guis and buttons and text boxes and binary trees and sorting, yada yada?) while making the same mistakes and learning the hard way each time, also vehemently argue about software being "art" might like OSX, but even that is debatable. Meanwhile actual Engineers (the ones with the license) the people who need CAD and design tools for building bridges and running manufacturing plants stay far away from OSX.

PaulHoule 2y ago
If you look at creative pros such as photographers and Hollywood ‘film’ editors, VFX artists, etc. you will see a lot of Windows and Linux as people are more concerned about getting absolute power at a fair price and don’t care if it is big, ugly. etc.
- pompino 2y ago
  Oh, I'm sure there are lots of creatives who use OSX, so I don't mean to suggest nobody uses OSX, so I'll admit it was a bit in jest to poke fun at the stereotype. I'm definitely oldschool - but to me It's a bit cringe to hear "Oh, I'm an engineer.." or "As an engineer.." from people sit at a coffee shop writing emails or doing the most basic s/w dev work. I truly think silicon valley people would benefit from talking to technical people who are building bridges and manufacturing plants and cars and hardware and chips and all this stuff on r/engineeringporn that everyone takes for granted. I transitioned from s/w to hardcore manufacturing 15 years ago, and it was eye opening, and very humbling.
  - shykes 2y ago
    "silicon valley people would benefit from talking to people who build chips", that's a good one!
    - pompino 2y ago
      It would be funny, if it wasn't also sad to see the decline.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
    I’d assume a lot of this is because you can’t get the software on MacOS. Not a choice. Who is choosing to use Windows 10/11 where you get tabloid news in the OS by default? Or choosing to hide the button to create local user accounts?
    - pompino 2y ago
      People overwhelmingly choose windows world-wide to get shit done. That answers the who.
      - 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
        So the same software exists on multiple platforms, there are no legacy or hardware compatibility considerations, interoperability considerations, no budget considerations, and the users have a choice in what they use? I.e the same functionality exists with no draw backs and money was no object. And they chose Windows? Seriously why?
        pompino 2y ago
        We use the sales metrics and signals available to us. I don't know what to say except resign to the fact that the world is fundamentally unfair, and you won't ever get to run the A/B experiment that you want. So yes, Windows it is !
        goosedragons 2y ago
        More choice in hardware. More flexibility in hardware. UI preferences. You can't get a Mac 2 in 1 or a Mac foldable or a Mac gaming notebook or a Mac that weighs less than a kilogram. You can't get a Mac with an OLED screen or a numpad. Some people just prefer the Windows UI too. I usually use Linux but between MacOS and Windows, I prefer the latter.
    - steve1977 2y ago
      Who is choosing to use macOS, where non-Apple monitors and other 3rd party hardware just stops working after minor updates and then starts working again after another update, without any official statement from Apple that there was a problem and a fix?
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    You seem to have some romanticized notion of engineers and deeply offended by someone calling themselves engineer. Why do you even care if someone sits at a coffee shop writing emails and calls themselves engineer? You think it somehow dilutes prestige of word "engineer"? Makes it less elite or what?
    - pompino 2y ago
      "deeply offended" - My default response to imposters is laughter. Call yourself Lord, King, President, Doctor, Lawyer whatever - doesn't matter to me. I'd suggest you to lighten up.
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        They hate you because you speak the truth. Code monkeys calling themselves engineers really is funny.
  - zaphirplane 2y ago
    Do you have an engineering degree ?
    - pompino 2y ago
      Yes, a bachelors and a masters. Not that the degree means much, I learnt 90% of what I know on the job. It certainly helped get my foot in through the university brand, and alumni network. You can call yourself anything you want Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer. I have the freedom to think my own thoughts too.
cafed00d 2y ago
I always likened "engineers"[1] to "people who are proficient in calculus"; and "computers"[1] to "people who are proficient at calculations". There was brief sidestep from late 1980s to early 2010s (~2012) where the term "software engineer" came into vogue and completely ran orthogonal to "proficiency in calculus". I mean, literally 99% of software engineers never learned calculus! But it's nice to see that ever since ~2015 or so (and perhaps even going forward) proficiency in calculus is rising to the fore. We call those "software engineers" "ML Engineers" nowadays, ehh fine by me. And all those "computers" are not people anymore -- looks like carefully arranged sand (silicon) in metal took over. I wonder if it's just a matter of time before the carefully-arranged-sand-in-metal form factor will take over the "engineer" role too. One of those Tesla/Figure robots becomes "proficient at calculus" and "proficient at calculations" better than "people". Reference: [1]: I took the terms "engineer" and "computer" literally out of the movie "Hidden Figures" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Figures#Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Figures#Plot It looks like ever since humankind learned calculus there was an enormous benefit to applying it in the engineering of rockets, aeroplanes, bridges, houses, and eventually "the careful arrangement of sand (silicon)". Literally every one of those jobs required learning calculus at school and applying calculus at work.
- hyperadvanced 2y ago
  Most software engineering just doesn’t require calculus, though it does benefit from having the understanding of functions and limit behaviors that higher math does. But if you look at a lot of meme dev jobs they’ve transitioned heavily away from the crypto craze of the past 5 years towards “prompt engineering” or the like to exploit LLMs in the same way that the “Uber for X” meme of 2012-2017 exploited surface level knowledge of JS or API integration work. Fundamentally, the tech ecosystem desires low skill employees, LLMs are a new frontier in doing a lot with a little in terms of deep technical knowledge.
- techcode 2y ago
  Why pointing out Calculus as opposed to just Math? Might be just my Eastern Europe background where it was all just "Math" and both equations (that's Algebra I guess) and simpler functions/analysis (Calculus?) are taught in elementary school around age 14 or 15. Maybe I'm missing/forgetting something - I think I used Calculus more during electrical engineering than for computer/software engineering.
nineteen999 2y ago
Maybe we need a new moniker "webgineer". The average HN/FAANG web programmer does appear to vastly overestimate the value of their contributions to the world.
- peterleiser 2y ago
  1999 indeed! I haven't heard that term since around 1999 when I was hired as a "web engineer" and derisively referred to myself as a "webgineer". I almost asked if I could change my title to "sciencematician".
- techcode 2y ago
  Have we done full circle? When I started doing this "Internet stuff" we were called "webmasters", and job would actually include what today we call: - DevOps - Server/Linux sysadmin - DB admin - Full stack (backend and frontend) engineer And I might have forgot some things.
- KptMarchewa 2y ago
  People who cobble together new printers or kettles overestimate the value of their contributions to the world too. The delineation isn't between JS devs and JPL or ASML engineers.
mogiddy55 2y ago
From what I've heard (not an OSX user) Windows is the best operating system for multiple screens; OSX and Linux glitch way more. Most anyone doing 3D sculpture or graphics/art on a professional level will eventually move to working with 2-3 screens, and since there are no exclusively Mac design programs, OSX will be suboptimal. There's little things too, like some people using gaming peripherals (multi-button MMO mice and left hand controllers, etc.) for editing, which might not be compatible with OSX. And also, if you're mucking around with two 32 inch 4k monitors and a 16 inch Wacom it might start to feel a little ridiculous trying to save space with a Mac Pro.
- egypturnash 2y ago
  I’ve been doing art on a pro level for twenty five years and I dislike multiple monitors.
  - mogiddy55 2y ago
    I am just commenting about what I've seen at concept artist desks / animation studios / etc.
  - ddingus 2y ago
    Why is that? I am not an artist and also dislike multiple monitors, though I will employ two of them on occasion. My reasons are: If the window and application management doesn't suck, one display is all one needs. With cheap multiple displays and touch devices came an ongoing enshitification of app and window management. (And usually dumber focus rules) Having to turn my head x times a day sucks.
- Shorel 2y ago
  Besides Windows having more drivers for USB adapters than Linux*, which is a reflection of the market, I find Linux having much fewer glitches using multiple screens. Once it works, Linux is more reliable than Windows. And virtual desktops have always worked better on Linux than on Windows. So I disagree with you on that front. * In my case, this means I had to get an Anker HDMI adapter, instead of any random brand.
tlrobinson 2y ago
Who do you think writes those CAD and design tools that help “actual engineers” solve the same problems over and over?
- pompino 2y ago
  Would you like me to explain how it works to you? I'm not sure why you added a question mark.
  - what 2y ago
    Yes, they were asking you a question. Do you not understand question marks?
bee_rider 2y ago
I did EE in college but we mostly just used Windows because the shitty semi-proprietary SPICE simulator we had to use, and stuff like that, only supported Windows. The company that makes your embedded processor might only support Windows (and begrudgingly at that). I think engineers using software should not be seen as an endorsement. They seem to have an incredible tolerance for bad UI.
- pompino 2y ago
  You seem to be suggesting that a chunk of the hundreds of millions of people who use a UI that you don't like, secretly hate it or are forced to tolerate it. Not a position I'd personally want to argue or defend, so I'll leave it at that.
  - paulmd 2y ago
    What an oddly aggressive and hostile response to such a banal observation. Yes, millions of people use software they hate, all the time, that’s wildly uncontroversial.
    - pompino 2y ago
      Its not an "observation" its someone making it up. Why are you so upset if I disagree?
      - wiseowise 2y ago
        Making up what? Go drop by your nearby shop. My hair styling constantly complains about management software that they use and quality of payment integration. At work I constantly hear complaints about shitty, slow IDEs. At optician store guy been complaining about inventory system. People hate software that they're forced to use. Professionals are better at tolerating crapware, because there's usually sunk cost fallacy involved.
        d0mine 2y ago
fecal_henge 2y ago
I'd say a lot of engineers (bridges, circuit boards, injection mouldings) are kept far away from OSX (and linux). Honestly, I'd just love a operating system that doesn't decide its going to restart itself periodically!
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > Honestly, I'd just love a operating system that doesn't decide its going to restart itself periodically! My MBP has been running without any restart for over a month.
  - fecal_henge 2y ago
    Yes. I'm pretty sure my wifes 2014 Macbook Air has been 6 months without restart. My windows 11 workstation however has never done a week. I power down now daily to avoid dissapointment.
wiseowise 2y ago
You can shit all you want on so called "engineers", but they are the one who make the CAD you're talking about that "real engineers" use. So get off your high horse.
germandiago 2y ago
I challenge you to take those people who make bridges to build full software. I am not meaning software is engineering or not. It is a fact, in terms of cost, that software and bridge building are, most of the time very different activities with very different goals and cost-benefit ratios. All those things count when taking decisions about the level of standardization. About standards... there are lots also and widely used, from networking to protocols, data transfer formats... with well-known strengths and limitations.
pauby 2y ago
In my 30± year career I can confidently say that Software Engineers look towards standardisation by default as it makes their lives easier. It feels to me that you're bitter or had more than one bad experience. Perhaps you keep working with, or come across, bad Engineers as your generalising is inaccurate.
pas 2y ago
> who never standardize anything IETF RFCs soon number over 10K; Java, win32, the Linux kernel syscall API are famous for backward compatibility not to mention the absurd success of standard libraries of Python, Rust, PHP and certain "standard" projects like Django, React, and ExpressJS > (how many libraries do you need for arrays and vectors and guis and buttons and text boxes and binary trees and sorting, yada yada?) considering the design space is enormous and the tradeoffs are not trivial ... it's good to have libraries that fundamentally solve the similar thing but in different context-dependent ways arguably we are using too many libraries and not enough problem-specific in-situ DSLs (see the result of Alan Kay's research the STEPS project at VPRI - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32966987 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32966987 )
- pompino 2y ago
  I'd argue almost all NEW library development is about politics and platform ownership. Every large company wants to be the dependency that other projects tie into. And if you don't want to hitch your wagon to google or facebook or whoever, you roll your own. Many if not most computational problems are fundamentally about data and data transformation under constraints - Throughput, Memory, Latency, etc, etc. And for the situations where the tradeoffs are non-trivial, solving this problem is purely about domain knowledge regarding the nature of the data (video codec data, real-time sensor data, financial data, etc) not about programming expertise. The various ways to high level architect the overall design in terms of client/server, P2P, distributed vs local, threading model, are, IME are not what I would call crazy complicated. There are standard ways of implementing various variations of the overall design which sadly because of a overall roll-your-own mindset, most devs are reluctant to adopt someone elses design. Part of that is that we don't have a framework of knowledge that allows us to build a library for these designs in our head where we can just pick one thats right for our usecase. I don't agree with your characterization of the design space as 'enourmous'. I'd say most programmers just need to know a handful of design types because they're not working on high performance, low latency, multi-million endpoint scalable projects where as you say things can get non-trivial. I'll give a shot at an analogy (I'm hoping the nitpickers are out to lunch). The design space for door knob is enormous because of the various hand shapes, disability constraints, door sizes, applications, security implications, etc. And yet we've standardize d on a few door knob types for most homes which you can go out and buy and install yourself. The special case bank vaults and prisons and other domains solve it their own way.
sirsinsalot 2y ago
You're kidding yourself if you don't think that mechanical, structural or any other engineers don't do the same thing. They do. I worked for one of the UKs leading architecture / construction firms writing software and also am an amature mechanic. You'd be amazed at how many gasket types, nuts, bolts, fasteners, unfasters, glues, concretes, bonding agents and so on ... all invented for edge preferences and most of which could be used interchangably. Also standards? Hah. They're an absolute shitshow in any engineering effort. I mean ... even just units of measure. C'mon.

PaulHoule 2y ago

If you look at creative pros such as photographers and Hollywood ‘film’ editors, VFX artists, etc. you will see a lot of Windows and Linux as people are more concerned about getting absolute power at a fair price and don’t care if it is big, ugly. etc.

pompino 2y ago
Oh, I'm sure there are lots of creatives who use OSX, so I don't mean to suggest nobody uses OSX, so I'll admit it was a bit in jest to poke fun at the stereotype. I'm definitely oldschool - but to me It's a bit cringe to hear "Oh, I'm an engineer.." or "As an engineer.." from people sit at a coffee shop writing emails or doing the most basic s/w dev work. I truly think silicon valley people would benefit from talking to technical people who are building bridges and manufacturing plants and cars and hardware and chips and all this stuff on r/engineeringporn that everyone takes for granted. I transitioned from s/w to hardcore manufacturing 15 years ago, and it was eye opening, and very humbling.
- shykes 2y ago
  "silicon valley people would benefit from talking to people who build chips", that's a good one!
  - pompino 2y ago
    It would be funny, if it wasn't also sad to see the decline.
- 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
  I’d assume a lot of this is because you can’t get the software on MacOS. Not a choice. Who is choosing to use Windows 10/11 where you get tabloid news in the OS by default? Or choosing to hide the button to create local user accounts?
  - pompino 2y ago
    People overwhelmingly choose windows world-wide to get shit done. That answers the who.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
      So the same software exists on multiple platforms, there are no legacy or hardware compatibility considerations, interoperability considerations, no budget considerations, and the users have a choice in what they use? I.e the same functionality exists with no draw backs and money was no object. And they chose Windows? Seriously why?
      - pompino 2y ago
        We use the sales metrics and signals available to us. I don't know what to say except resign to the fact that the world is fundamentally unfair, and you won't ever get to run the A/B experiment that you want. So yes, Windows it is !
      - goosedragons 2y ago
        More choice in hardware. More flexibility in hardware. UI preferences. You can't get a Mac 2 in 1 or a Mac foldable or a Mac gaming notebook or a Mac that weighs less than a kilogram. You can't get a Mac with an OLED screen or a numpad. Some people just prefer the Windows UI too. I usually use Linux but between MacOS and Windows, I prefer the latter.
  - steve1977 2y ago
    Who is choosing to use macOS, where non-Apple monitors and other 3rd party hardware just stops working after minor updates and then starts working again after another update, without any official statement from Apple that there was a problem and a fix?
- wiseowise 2y ago
  You seem to have some romanticized notion of engineers and deeply offended by someone calling themselves engineer. Why do you even care if someone sits at a coffee shop writing emails and calls themselves engineer? You think it somehow dilutes prestige of word "engineer"? Makes it less elite or what?
  - pompino 2y ago
    "deeply offended" - My default response to imposters is laughter. Call yourself Lord, King, President, Doctor, Lawyer whatever - doesn't matter to me. I'd suggest you to lighten up.
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      They hate you because you speak the truth. Code monkeys calling themselves engineers really is funny.
- zaphirplane 2y ago
  Do you have an engineering degree ?
  - pompino 2y ago
    Yes, a bachelors and a masters. Not that the degree means much, I learnt 90% of what I know on the job. It certainly helped get my foot in through the university brand, and alumni network. You can call yourself anything you want Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer. I have the freedom to think my own thoughts too.

cafed00d 2y ago

I always likened "engineers"[1] to "people who are proficient in calculus"; and "computers"[1] to "people who are proficient at calculations". There was brief sidestep from late 1980s to early 2010s (~2012) where the term "software engineer" came into vogue and completely ran orthogonal to "proficiency in calculus". I mean, literally 99% of software engineers never learned calculus! But it's nice to see that ever since ~2015 or so (and perhaps even going forward) proficiency in calculus is rising to the fore. We call those "software engineers" "ML Engineers" nowadays, ehh fine by me. And all those "computers" are not people anymore -- looks like carefully arranged sand (silicon) in metal took over. I wonder if it's just a matter of time before the carefully-arranged-sand-in-metal form factor will take over the "engineer" role too. One of those Tesla/Figure robots becomes "proficient at calculus" and "proficient at calculations" better than "people". Reference: [1]: I took the terms "engineer" and "computer" literally out of the movie "Hidden Figures" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Figures#Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Figures#Plot It looks like ever since humankind learned calculus there was an enormous benefit to applying it in the engineering of rockets, aeroplanes, bridges, houses, and eventually "the careful arrangement of sand (silicon)". Literally every one of those jobs required learning calculus at school and applying calculus at work.

hyperadvanced 2y ago
Most software engineering just doesn’t require calculus, though it does benefit from having the understanding of functions and limit behaviors that higher math does. But if you look at a lot of meme dev jobs they’ve transitioned heavily away from the crypto craze of the past 5 years towards “prompt engineering” or the like to exploit LLMs in the same way that the “Uber for X” meme of 2012-2017 exploited surface level knowledge of JS or API integration work. Fundamentally, the tech ecosystem desires low skill employees, LLMs are a new frontier in doing a lot with a little in terms of deep technical knowledge.
techcode 2y ago
Why pointing out Calculus as opposed to just Math? Might be just my Eastern Europe background where it was all just "Math" and both equations (that's Algebra I guess) and simpler functions/analysis (Calculus?) are taught in elementary school around age 14 or 15. Maybe I'm missing/forgetting something - I think I used Calculus more during electrical engineering than for computer/software engineering.

nineteen999 2y ago

Maybe we need a new moniker "webgineer". The average HN/FAANG web programmer does appear to vastly overestimate the value of their contributions to the world.

peterleiser 2y ago
1999 indeed! I haven't heard that term since around 1999 when I was hired as a "web engineer" and derisively referred to myself as a "webgineer". I almost asked if I could change my title to "sciencematician".
techcode 2y ago
Have we done full circle? When I started doing this "Internet stuff" we were called "webmasters", and job would actually include what today we call: - DevOps - Server/Linux sysadmin - DB admin - Full stack (backend and frontend) engineer And I might have forgot some things.
KptMarchewa 2y ago
People who cobble together new printers or kettles overestimate the value of their contributions to the world too. The delineation isn't between JS devs and JPL or ASML engineers.

mogiddy55 2y ago

From what I've heard (not an OSX user) Windows is the best operating system for multiple screens; OSX and Linux glitch way more. Most anyone doing 3D sculpture or graphics/art on a professional level will eventually move to working with 2-3 screens, and since there are no exclusively Mac design programs, OSX will be suboptimal. There's little things too, like some people using gaming peripherals (multi-button MMO mice and left hand controllers, etc.) for editing, which might not be compatible with OSX. And also, if you're mucking around with two 32 inch 4k monitors and a 16 inch Wacom it might start to feel a little ridiculous trying to save space with a Mac Pro.

egypturnash 2y ago
I’ve been doing art on a pro level for twenty five years and I dislike multiple monitors.
- mogiddy55 2y ago
  I am just commenting about what I've seen at concept artist desks / animation studios / etc.
- ddingus 2y ago
  Why is that? I am not an artist and also dislike multiple monitors, though I will employ two of them on occasion. My reasons are: If the window and application management doesn't suck, one display is all one needs. With cheap multiple displays and touch devices came an ongoing enshitification of app and window management. (And usually dumber focus rules) Having to turn my head x times a day sucks.
Shorel 2y ago
Besides Windows having more drivers for USB adapters than Linux*, which is a reflection of the market, I find Linux having much fewer glitches using multiple screens. Once it works, Linux is more reliable than Windows. And virtual desktops have always worked better on Linux than on Windows. So I disagree with you on that front. * In my case, this means I had to get an Anker HDMI adapter, instead of any random brand.

tlrobinson 2y ago

Who do you think writes those CAD and design tools that help “actual engineers” solve the same problems over and over?

pompino 2y ago
Would you like me to explain how it works to you? I'm not sure why you added a question mark.
- what 2y ago
  Yes, they were asking you a question. Do you not understand question marks?

bee_rider 2y ago

I did EE in college but we mostly just used Windows because the shitty semi-proprietary SPICE simulator we had to use, and stuff like that, only supported Windows. The company that makes your embedded processor might only support Windows (and begrudgingly at that). I think engineers using software should not be seen as an endorsement. They seem to have an incredible tolerance for bad UI.

pompino 2y ago
You seem to be suggesting that a chunk of the hundreds of millions of people who use a UI that you don't like, secretly hate it or are forced to tolerate it. Not a position I'd personally want to argue or defend, so I'll leave it at that.
- paulmd 2y ago
  What an oddly aggressive and hostile response to such a banal observation. Yes, millions of people use software they hate, all the time, that’s wildly uncontroversial.
  - pompino 2y ago
    Its not an "observation" its someone making it up. Why are you so upset if I disagree?
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      Making up what? Go drop by your nearby shop. My hair styling constantly complains about management software that they use and quality of payment integration. At work I constantly hear complaints about shitty, slow IDEs. At optician store guy been complaining about inventory system. People hate software that they're forced to use. Professionals are better at tolerating crapware, because there's usually sunk cost fallacy involved.
      - d0mine 2y ago

fecal_henge 2y ago

I'd say a lot of engineers (bridges, circuit boards, injection mouldings) are kept far away from OSX (and linux). Honestly, I'd just love a operating system that doesn't decide its going to restart itself periodically!

wiseowise 2y ago
> Honestly, I'd just love a operating system that doesn't decide its going to restart itself periodically! My MBP has been running without any restart for over a month.
- fecal_henge 2y ago
  Yes. I'm pretty sure my wifes 2014 Macbook Air has been 6 months without restart. My windows 11 workstation however has never done a week. I power down now daily to avoid dissapointment.

wiseowise 2y ago

You can shit all you want on so called "engineers", but they are the one who make the CAD you're talking about that "real engineers" use. So get off your high horse.

germandiago 2y ago

I challenge you to take those people who make bridges to build full software. I am not meaning software is engineering or not. It is a fact, in terms of cost, that software and bridge building are, most of the time very different activities with very different goals and cost-benefit ratios. All those things count when taking decisions about the level of standardization. About standards... there are lots also and widely used, from networking to protocols, data transfer formats... with well-known strengths and limitations.

pauby 2y ago

In my 30± year career I can confidently say that Software Engineers look towards standardisation by default as it makes their lives easier. It feels to me that you're bitter or had more than one bad experience. Perhaps you keep working with, or come across, bad Engineers as your generalising is inaccurate.

pas 2y ago

> who never standardize anything IETF RFCs soon number over 10K; Java, win32, the Linux kernel syscall API are famous for backward compatibility not to mention the absurd success of standard libraries of Python, Rust, PHP and certain "standard" projects like Django, React, and ExpressJS > (how many libraries do you need for arrays and vectors and guis and buttons and text boxes and binary trees and sorting, yada yada?) considering the design space is enormous and the tradeoffs are not trivial ... it's good to have libraries that fundamentally solve the similar thing but in different context-dependent ways arguably we are using too many libraries and not enough problem-specific in-situ DSLs (see the result of Alan Kay's research the STEPS project at VPRI - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32966987 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32966987 )

pompino 2y ago
I'd argue almost all NEW library development is about politics and platform ownership. Every large company wants to be the dependency that other projects tie into. And if you don't want to hitch your wagon to google or facebook or whoever, you roll your own. Many if not most computational problems are fundamentally about data and data transformation under constraints - Throughput, Memory, Latency, etc, etc. And for the situations where the tradeoffs are non-trivial, solving this problem is purely about domain knowledge regarding the nature of the data (video codec data, real-time sensor data, financial data, etc) not about programming expertise. The various ways to high level architect the overall design in terms of client/server, P2P, distributed vs local, threading model, are, IME are not what I would call crazy complicated. There are standard ways of implementing various variations of the overall design which sadly because of a overall roll-your-own mindset, most devs are reluctant to adopt someone elses design. Part of that is that we don't have a framework of knowledge that allows us to build a library for these designs in our head where we can just pick one thats right for our usecase. I don't agree with your characterization of the design space as 'enourmous'. I'd say most programmers just need to know a handful of design types because they're not working on high performance, low latency, multi-million endpoint scalable projects where as you say things can get non-trivial. I'll give a shot at an analogy (I'm hoping the nitpickers are out to lunch). The design space for door knob is enormous because of the various hand shapes, disability constraints, door sizes, applications, security implications, etc. And yet we've standardize d on a few door knob types for most homes which you can go out and buy and install yourself. The special case bank vaults and prisons and other domains solve it their own way.

sirsinsalot 2y ago

You're kidding yourself if you don't think that mechanical, structural or any other engineers don't do the same thing. They do. I worked for one of the UKs leading architecture / construction firms writing software and also am an amature mechanic. You'd be amazed at how many gasket types, nuts, bolts, fasteners, unfasters, glues, concretes, bonding agents and so on ... all invented for edge preferences and most of which could be used interchangably. Also standards? Hah. They're an absolute shitshow in any engineering effort. I mean ... even just units of measure. C'mon.