5 ms·

no, no, NO and yes. I actually rejected a job offer when heard I will be given a macbook pro. Apple, been the most closed company these days, should be avoide

no, no, NO and yes. I actually rejected a job offer when heard I will be given a macbook pro. Apple, been the most closed company these days, should be avoided as much as you can, not to mention its macos is useless for linux developers like me, anything else is better. its keyboard is dumb to me(that stupid command/ctrl key difference), can not even mouse-select and paste is enough for me to avoid Macos at all costs.

486sx33 2y ago
I think I had similar feelings but took an open mind and love my m2 pro Sometimes an open mind reaps rewards friend
- gibolt 2y ago
  I selected Mac + iOS devices when a job offered a choice, specifically to try out the option, while personally sticking with Windows and Android. Now the performance of Mx Macs convinced me to switch, and I'll die on the hill of Android for life
insaneirish 2y ago
> I actually rejected a job offer when heard I will be given a macbook pro. Probably best for you both.
fastball 2y ago
macOS is clearly better for linux devs than Windows, given it is unix under-the-hood. I don't even know what you mean by mouse-select and paste.
- BenjiWiebe 2y ago
  On most Linux environments: text you highlight with the mouse (or highlight by double/triple clicking) can be "pasted" by middle-clicking.
  - Cyphase 2y ago
    And it's a separate clipboard from Ctrl+C/right-click-and-copy. The number of times I miss that on non-Linux...
    - Lio 2y ago
      Personally, I use tmux on both Linux and macOS to get multiple clipboards and the mouse behaviour I’m used to.
- Reason077 2y ago
  > "I don't even know what you mean by mouse-select and paste." Presumably they mean linux-style text select & paste, which is done by selecting text and then clicking the middle mouse button to paste it (no explicit "copy" command). macOS doesn't have built-in support for this, but there are some third-party scripts/apps to enable it. For example: https://github.com/lodestone/macpaste https://github.com/lodestone/macpaste
- airtonix 2y ago
  [dead]
- int_19h 2y ago
  On Windows these days, you get WSL, which is actual Linux, kernel and all. There are still some differences with a standalone Linux system, but they are far smaller than macOS, in which not only the kernel is completely different, but the userspace also has many rather prominent differences that you will very quickly run afoul of (like different command line switches for the same commands). Then there's Docker. Running amd64 containers on Apple silicon is slow for obvious reasons. Running arm64 containers is fast, but the actual environment you will be deploying to is almost certainly amd64, so if you're using that locally for dev & test purposes, you can get some surprises in prod. Windows, of course, will happily run amd64 natively.
  - paulmd 2y ago
    > the actual environment you will be deploying to is almost certainly amd64 that’s up to your team of course, but graviton is generally cheaper than x86 instances nowadays and afaik the same is true on google and the other clouds.
    - aforwardslash 2y ago
      Arm is an ISA, not a family of processors. You may expect Apple chips and Graviton to be wildly different, and perform completely different in the same scenario. In fact, most Arm cpus also have specific extensions that are not found in other manufacturers. So yes, while both recognize a base set of instructions, thats about it - expect that everything else is different. I know, amd64 is also technically an ISA, but you have 2 major manufacturers, with very similar and predictable performance characteristics. And even then, sometimes something on AMD behaves quite differently from Intel. For most devs, doing crud stuff or writing high-level scripting languages, this isn't really a problem. For some devs, working on time-sensitive problems or with strict baseline performance requirements, this is important. For devs developing device drivers, emulation can only get you so far.
      - paulmd 2y ago
        What are you responding to here? No, I said you won’t always be deploying on amd64. Because arm64 is now the cheapest option and generally faster than the sandy bridge vcpu unit that amd64 instances are indexed against (and really, constrained to, intentionally, by AWS). I never said anything about graviton not being arm64.
ekimekim 2y ago
> I actually rejected a job offer when heard I will be given a macbook pro. For what it's worth, I've had a good success rate at politely asking to be given an equivalent laptop I can put linux on, or provide my own device. I've never had to outright reject an offer due to being required to use a Mac. At worst I get "you'll be responsible for making our dev environment work on your setup".
- nobleach 2y ago
  I've had 50/50. These days I'm fairly okay with just taking the Macbook Pro. I did have one instance where I got one my first week and used my Dell XPS with Linux the entire 10 months I was at the place. I returned the Macbook basically unused. Only one time did I interview with a place where I asked if I'd be given a choice what hardware/OS I could use. The response was "We use Windows". My response was, "no we do not. Either I will not be using Windows with you, or I will not be using Windows NOT with you". I didn't get an offer. I was cool with it.
fooblaster 2y ago
what amazing laptop must an employer give you to not be summarily rejected?
- synergy20 2y ago
  any thing runs Linux,even wsl2 is fine,no macos is the key. and yes it costs the employer about half of the expensive Apple devices that can not even be upgraded, its hardware is as closed as its software.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    Employers typically also care about costs like “how hard is it to provision the devices” and “how long is the useful life of this” or “can I repurpose an old machine for someone else”.
    - p_l 2y ago
      Provisioning is a place where Windows laptops win hands down, though. Pretty much everything going wrong with provisioning involves going extra weird on hw (usually for cheap supplier) and/or pushing weird third party "security" crapware.
wiseowise 2y ago
> its keyboard is dumb to me(that stupid command/ctrl key difference) Literally best keyboard shortcuts out of all major OSes. I don't know what weird crab hands you need to have to comfortably use shortcuts on Windows/Linux. CMD maps PERFECTLY on my thumb.

486sx33 2y ago

I think I had similar feelings but took an open mind and love my m2 pro Sometimes an open mind reaps rewards friend

gibolt 2y ago
I selected Mac + iOS devices when a job offered a choice, specifically to try out the option, while personally sticking with Windows and Android. Now the performance of Mx Macs convinced me to switch, and I'll die on the hill of Android for life

insaneirish 2y ago

> I actually rejected a job offer when heard I will be given a macbook pro. Probably best for you both.

fastball 2y ago

macOS is clearly better for linux devs than Windows, given it is unix under-the-hood. I don't even know what you mean by mouse-select and paste.

BenjiWiebe 2y ago
On most Linux environments: text you highlight with the mouse (or highlight by double/triple clicking) can be "pasted" by middle-clicking.
- Cyphase 2y ago
  And it's a separate clipboard from Ctrl+C/right-click-and-copy. The number of times I miss that on non-Linux...
  - Lio 2y ago
    Personally, I use tmux on both Linux and macOS to get multiple clipboards and the mouse behaviour I’m used to.
Reason077 2y ago
> "I don't even know what you mean by mouse-select and paste." Presumably they mean linux-style text select & paste, which is done by selecting text and then clicking the middle mouse button to paste it (no explicit "copy" command). macOS doesn't have built-in support for this, but there are some third-party scripts/apps to enable it. For example: https://github.com/lodestone/macpaste https://github.com/lodestone/macpaste
airtonix 2y ago
[dead]
int_19h 2y ago
On Windows these days, you get WSL, which is actual Linux, kernel and all. There are still some differences with a standalone Linux system, but they are far smaller than macOS, in which not only the kernel is completely different, but the userspace also has many rather prominent differences that you will very quickly run afoul of (like different command line switches for the same commands). Then there's Docker. Running amd64 containers on Apple silicon is slow for obvious reasons. Running arm64 containers is fast, but the actual environment you will be deploying to is almost certainly amd64, so if you're using that locally for dev & test purposes, you can get some surprises in prod. Windows, of course, will happily run amd64 natively.
- paulmd 2y ago
  > the actual environment you will be deploying to is almost certainly amd64 that’s up to your team of course, but graviton is generally cheaper than x86 instances nowadays and afaik the same is true on google and the other clouds.
  - aforwardslash 2y ago
    Arm is an ISA, not a family of processors. You may expect Apple chips and Graviton to be wildly different, and perform completely different in the same scenario. In fact, most Arm cpus also have specific extensions that are not found in other manufacturers. So yes, while both recognize a base set of instructions, thats about it - expect that everything else is different. I know, amd64 is also technically an ISA, but you have 2 major manufacturers, with very similar and predictable performance characteristics. And even then, sometimes something on AMD behaves quite differently from Intel. For most devs, doing crud stuff or writing high-level scripting languages, this isn't really a problem. For some devs, working on time-sensitive problems or with strict baseline performance requirements, this is important. For devs developing device drivers, emulation can only get you so far.
    - paulmd 2y ago
      What are you responding to here? No, I said you won’t always be deploying on amd64. Because arm64 is now the cheapest option and generally faster than the sandy bridge vcpu unit that amd64 instances are indexed against (and really, constrained to, intentionally, by AWS). I never said anything about graviton not being arm64.

ekimekim 2y ago

> I actually rejected a job offer when heard I will be given a macbook pro. For what it's worth, I've had a good success rate at politely asking to be given an equivalent laptop I can put linux on, or provide my own device. I've never had to outright reject an offer due to being required to use a Mac. At worst I get "you'll be responsible for making our dev environment work on your setup".

nobleach 2y ago
I've had 50/50. These days I'm fairly okay with just taking the Macbook Pro. I did have one instance where I got one my first week and used my Dell XPS with Linux the entire 10 months I was at the place. I returned the Macbook basically unused. Only one time did I interview with a place where I asked if I'd be given a choice what hardware/OS I could use. The response was "We use Windows". My response was, "no we do not. Either I will not be using Windows with you, or I will not be using Windows NOT with you". I didn't get an offer. I was cool with it.

fooblaster 2y ago

what amazing laptop must an employer give you to not be summarily rejected?

synergy20 2y ago
any thing runs Linux,even wsl2 is fine,no macos is the key. and yes it costs the employer about half of the expensive Apple devices that can not even be upgraded, its hardware is as closed as its software.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Employers typically also care about costs like “how hard is it to provision the devices” and “how long is the useful life of this” or “can I repurpose an old machine for someone else”.
  - p_l 2y ago
    Provisioning is a place where Windows laptops win hands down, though. Pretty much everything going wrong with provisioning involves going extra weird on hw (usually for cheap supplier) and/or pushing weird third party "security" crapware.

wiseowise 2y ago

> its keyboard is dumb to me(that stupid command/ctrl key difference) Literally best keyboard shortcuts out of all major OSes. I don't know what weird crab hands you need to have to comfortably use shortcuts on Windows/Linux. CMD maps PERFECTLY on my thumb.