5 ms·

Build quality, battery life, clean os install, and the value held over time has no Windows equivalent even at some much higher price points.

lolinder 2y ago
The same thing can be (and is!) said about luxury car brands. That's what makes the MacBook Air a luxury item. Most people, when given the pitch you just gave me for a 2x increase in price, will choose the cheaper item, just like they choose the cheaper car.
- vundercind 2y ago
  They’re tools. This attempt to treat them as luxury goods doesn’t hold with those. It’s entirely common for even people who want to do some home repair—let alone professionals—but aren’t clueless about DIY to spend 2x the cheapest option, because they know the cheapest one is actually worth $0. More will advocate spending way more than 2x, as long as you’re 100% sure you’re going to use it a lot (like, say, a phone or laptop, even for a lot of non-computer-geeks). This is true even if they’re just buying a simple lowish-power impact driver, nothing fancy, not the most powerful one, not the one with the most features. Still, they’ll often not go for the cheapest one, because those are generally not even fit for their intended purpose. [edit] I mean sure there are people who just want the Apple logo, I’m not saying there are zero of those, but they’re also excellent, reliable tools (by the standards of computers—so, still bad) and a good chunk of their buyers are there for that. Even the ones who only have a phone.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    I didn't go for the cheapest option: I'm typing this on a laptop that I bought a few months ago for $1200. It has an aluminum case, 32GB RAM, an AMD Ryzen CPU that benchmarks similar to the M3, and 1TB SSD. I can open it up and replace parts with ease. The equivalent from Apple would currently run me $3200. If I'm willing to compromise to 24GB of RAM I can get one for $2200. What makes an Apple device a luxury item isn't that it's more expensive, it's that no matter what specs you pick it will always be much more expensive than equivalent specs from a non-luxury provider. The things that Apple provides are not the headline stats that matter for a tool-user, they're luxury properties that don't actually matter to most people. Note that there's nothing wrong with buying a luxury item! It's entirely unsurprising that most people on HN looking at the latest M4 chip prefer luxury computers, and that's fine!
    - vundercind 2y ago
      Huh. Most of the folks I know on Apple stuff started out PC (and sometimes Android—I did) and maybe even made fun of Apple devices for a while, but switched after exposure to them because they turned out to be far, far better tools. And not even much more expensive, if at all, for TCO, given the longevity and resale value.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        Eh, I have to use a MacBook Pro for work because of IT rules and I'm still not sold. Might be because I'm a Linux person who absolutely must have a fully customizable environment, but MacOS always feels so limited. The devices are great and feel great. Definitely high quality (arguably, luxury!). The OS leaves a lot to be desired for me.
        vundercind 2y ago
        I spent about a decade before switching using Linux as my main :-) Mostly Gentoo and Ubuntu (man, it was good in the first few releases) Got a job in dual-platform mobile dev and was issued a MacBook. Exposure to dozens of phones and tablets from both ecosystem. I was converted within a year. (I barely customize anything these days, fwiw—hit the toggle for “caps as an extra ctrl”, brew install spectacle, done. Used to have opinions about my graphical login manager, use custom icon sets, all that stuff)
    - musicale 2y ago
      > no matter what specs you pick it will always be much more expensive than equivalent specs from a non-luxury provider On the phone side, I guess you would call Samsung and Google luxury providers? On the laptop side there are a number of differentiating features that are of general interest. > The things that Apple provides are not the headline stats that matter for a tool-user, they're luxury properties that don't actually matter to most people Things that might matter to regular people (and tool users): - design and build for something you use all day - mic and speakers that don't sound like garbage (very noticeable and relevant in the zoom/hybrid work era) - excellent display - excellent battery life - seamless integration with iPhone, iPad, AirPods - whole widget: fewer headaches vs. Windows (ymmv); better app consistency vs. Linux - in-person service/support at Apple stores It's hard to argue that Apple didn't reset expectations for laptop battery life (and fanless performance) with the M1 MacBook Air. If Ryzen has caught up, then competition is a good thing for all of us (maybe not intel though...) In general Apple isn't bleeding edge, but they innovate with high quality, very usable implementations (wi-fi (1999), gigabit ethernet (2001), modern MacBook Pro design (2001), "air"/ultrabook form factors (2008), thunderbolt (2011), "retina" display and standard ssd (2012), usb-c (2016), M1: SoC/SiP/unified memory/ARM/asymmetric cores/neural engine/power efficiency/battery life (2020) ...and occasionally with dubious features like the touchbar and butterfly keyboard (2016).)
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  Also, those things aren't even true about Apple devices. Apple fanboys have been convinced that their hardware really is way better than everything else for decades. It has never been true and still isn't.
- lupire 2y ago
  Luxury car market is 20% of US car market. Even more among people who can afford the option. It's not "most people" but it's not an outlier either.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
nxicvyvy 2y ago
Clean os install? You haven't used windows in a while have you? Im a Linux guy but am forced to use Mac's and windows every now and then. Windows has outpaced macos for a decade straight. Macos looks like it hasn't been updated in years. It's constantly bugging me for passwords for random things. It is objectively the worst OS. I'd rather work on a Chromebook.
- theshackleford 2y ago
  I’m not a single operating system guy like you. I use all three professionally. I’ve never had the bizzare struggle you describe.
  - worthless-trash 2y ago
    I think he has different critera on what bothers him, thats okay though isn't it. I get a little annoyed at anything where I have to use a touchpad, not enough to rant about it, but it definitely increases friction (haha) in my thought process.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > Macos looks like it hasn't been updated in years. Maybe the only reason why Windows outpaced macos in this for you is because Windows started as crap and is now barely looks like a proper OS? https://ntdev.blog/2021/02/06/state-of-the-windows-how-many-layers-of-ui-inconsistencies-are-in-windows-10/ https://ntdev.blog/2021/02/06/state-of-the-windows-how-many-... Thank God Mac hasn't changed that much. I absolutely love its UI.
pompino 2y ago
What metrics are you using for build quality? Admittedly I don't know a ton of mac people (I'm an engineer working in manufacturing) but the mac people I know, stuff always breaks, but they're bragging about how apple took care of it for free.

lolinder 2y ago

The same thing can be (and is!) said about luxury car brands. That's what makes the MacBook Air a luxury item. Most people, when given the pitch you just gave me for a 2x increase in price, will choose the cheaper item, just like they choose the cheaper car.

vundercind 2y ago
They’re tools. This attempt to treat them as luxury goods doesn’t hold with those. It’s entirely common for even people who want to do some home repair—let alone professionals—but aren’t clueless about DIY to spend 2x the cheapest option, because they know the cheapest one is actually worth $0. More will advocate spending way more than 2x, as long as you’re 100% sure you’re going to use it a lot (like, say, a phone or laptop, even for a lot of non-computer-geeks). This is true even if they’re just buying a simple lowish-power impact driver, nothing fancy, not the most powerful one, not the one with the most features. Still, they’ll often not go for the cheapest one, because those are generally not even fit for their intended purpose. [edit] I mean sure there are people who just want the Apple logo, I’m not saying there are zero of those, but they’re also excellent, reliable tools (by the standards of computers—so, still bad) and a good chunk of their buyers are there for that. Even the ones who only have a phone.
- lolinder 2y ago
  I didn't go for the cheapest option: I'm typing this on a laptop that I bought a few months ago for $1200. It has an aluminum case, 32GB RAM, an AMD Ryzen CPU that benchmarks similar to the M3, and 1TB SSD. I can open it up and replace parts with ease. The equivalent from Apple would currently run me $3200. If I'm willing to compromise to 24GB of RAM I can get one for $2200. What makes an Apple device a luxury item isn't that it's more expensive, it's that no matter what specs you pick it will always be much more expensive than equivalent specs from a non-luxury provider. The things that Apple provides are not the headline stats that matter for a tool-user, they're luxury properties that don't actually matter to most people. Note that there's nothing wrong with buying a luxury item! It's entirely unsurprising that most people on HN looking at the latest M4 chip prefer luxury computers, and that's fine!
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Huh. Most of the folks I know on Apple stuff started out PC (and sometimes Android—I did) and maybe even made fun of Apple devices for a while, but switched after exposure to them because they turned out to be far, far better tools. And not even much more expensive, if at all, for TCO, given the longevity and resale value.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      Eh, I have to use a MacBook Pro for work because of IT rules and I'm still not sold. Might be because I'm a Linux person who absolutely must have a fully customizable environment, but MacOS always feels so limited. The devices are great and feel great. Definitely high quality (arguably, luxury!). The OS leaves a lot to be desired for me.
      - vundercind 2y ago
        I spent about a decade before switching using Linux as my main :-) Mostly Gentoo and Ubuntu (man, it was good in the first few releases) Got a job in dual-platform mobile dev and was issued a MacBook. Exposure to dozens of phones and tablets from both ecosystem. I was converted within a year. (I barely customize anything these days, fwiw—hit the toggle for “caps as an extra ctrl”, brew install spectacle, done. Used to have opinions about my graphical login manager, use custom icon sets, all that stuff)
  - musicale 2y ago
    > no matter what specs you pick it will always be much more expensive than equivalent specs from a non-luxury provider On the phone side, I guess you would call Samsung and Google luxury providers? On the laptop side there are a number of differentiating features that are of general interest. > The things that Apple provides are not the headline stats that matter for a tool-user, they're luxury properties that don't actually matter to most people Things that might matter to regular people (and tool users): - design and build for something you use all day - mic and speakers that don't sound like garbage (very noticeable and relevant in the zoom/hybrid work era) - excellent display - excellent battery life - seamless integration with iPhone, iPad, AirPods - whole widget: fewer headaches vs. Windows (ymmv); better app consistency vs. Linux - in-person service/support at Apple stores It's hard to argue that Apple didn't reset expectations for laptop battery life (and fanless performance) with the M1 MacBook Air. If Ryzen has caught up, then competition is a good thing for all of us (maybe not intel though...) In general Apple isn't bleeding edge, but they innovate with high quality, very usable implementations (wi-fi (1999), gigabit ethernet (2001), modern MacBook Pro design (2001), "air"/ultrabook form factors (2008), thunderbolt (2011), "retina" display and standard ssd (2012), usb-c (2016), M1: SoC/SiP/unified memory/ARM/asymmetric cores/neural engine/power efficiency/battery life (2020) ...and occasionally with dubious features like the touchbar and butterfly keyboard (2016).)
bigstrat2003 2y ago
Also, those things aren't even true about Apple devices. Apple fanboys have been convinced that their hardware really is way better than everything else for decades. It has never been true and still isn't.
lupire 2y ago
Luxury car market is 20% of US car market. Even more among people who can afford the option. It's not "most people" but it's not an outlier either.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

nxicvyvy 2y ago

Clean os install? You haven't used windows in a while have you? Im a Linux guy but am forced to use Mac's and windows every now and then. Windows has outpaced macos for a decade straight. Macos looks like it hasn't been updated in years. It's constantly bugging me for passwords for random things. It is objectively the worst OS. I'd rather work on a Chromebook.

theshackleford 2y ago
I’m not a single operating system guy like you. I use all three professionally. I’ve never had the bizzare struggle you describe.
- worthless-trash 2y ago
  I think he has different critera on what bothers him, thats okay though isn't it. I get a little annoyed at anything where I have to use a touchpad, not enough to rant about it, but it definitely increases friction (haha) in my thought process.
wiseowise 2y ago
> Macos looks like it hasn't been updated in years. Maybe the only reason why Windows outpaced macos in this for you is because Windows started as crap and is now barely looks like a proper OS? https://ntdev.blog/2021/02/06/state-of-the-windows-how-many-layers-of-ui-inconsistencies-are-in-windows-10/ https://ntdev.blog/2021/02/06/state-of-the-windows-how-many-... Thank God Mac hasn't changed that much. I absolutely love its UI.

pompino 2y ago

What metrics are you using for build quality? Admittedly I don't know a ton of mac people (I'm an engineer working in manufacturing) but the mac people I know, stuff always breaks, but they're bragging about how apple took care of it for free.