4 ms·

Yeah, in the last few years I realized somewhere along the way that I stopped believing in laws. It's a strange feeling and hard to think about how I used to fe

Yeah, in the last few years I realized somewhere along the way that I stopped believing in laws. It's a strange feeling and hard to think about how I used to feel in retrospect; it's like I used to believe there was some force that existed throughout the country that should control our behavior, but at some point I realized that there just isn't anything there. It's a bit like losing religion I suppose.

itishappy 2y ago
Spirit or letter? Is it fair to assume you agree killing other human beings is still bad? Is there an alternative system you prefer?
- silverquiet 2y ago
  Reading back my comment, I probably should have said I have lost faith in "the law". In this context, I mean the idea of gun control, but it's just generally a feeling that there really is no one in control of (American) society at this point. Without getting into a whole thing about the context of killing other human beings and how that matters, I'll just say I know what you mean and say yeah, it's bad to kill people. I'm not talking about personal morality; I live by one that many people would probably find overly restrictive (I certainly do).
  - itishappy 2y ago
    Great response, and you're definitely not alone there, that's why I ask! I too find that the intent of "the law" is noble, but it seems to collect hard edges in practice. > I'm not talking about personal morality; I live by one that many people would probably find overly restrictive (I certainly do). Well now I'm interested!
  - MaxBarraclough 2y ago
    You might be interested in Bruce Schneier's take on trust and what prevents predatory behaviour. In his book Liars and Outliers he gives a taxonomy of 4 elements: law, reputation, morality, and security. Reputation and law are similar in that they're imposed by a community, but differ in that law follows a formally codified code, and of course the consequences imposed tend to differ. Morality is the internal motivation not to wrong others. Security describes physical/electronic measures that cause the predatory behaviour not to be practical in the first place, or at least raise the bar. Schneier's own summary: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/03/liars_and_outli_5.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/03/liars_and_out... A review, hosted on Schneier's site: https://www.schneier.com/news/archives/2012/12/liars-and-outliers-by-bruce-schneier-review.html https://www.schneier.com/news/archives/2012/12/liars-and-out...
llamaimperative 2y ago
You’re losing touch with reality if you actually don’t think laws modify people’s behaviors, at least in most of the developed world.
- silverquiet 2y ago
  Reality and I have had a pretty tough relationship, I'll concede that. I think my problem is that I've often seen the other way around - that peoples' behaviors modify the laws. I'm sure quite a bit could be written on that about Donald Trump who is currently in a trial that everyone knows cannot enforce any consequences to him, but for me I think the real moment it came apart was during the pandemic when I was struggling through some bureaucracy to update my car registration. I had the thought that I couldn't believe that the people who refuse to put on a mask to get groceries or whatever actually go do the nonsense that I was trying to get through right then. In contrast, covering your face with a piece of paper seemed really trivial, and yet to so many it was an affront to their identity, and so the mask mandates were ultimately rendered toothless.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    You’re definitely onto something there. I highly recommend the book The Metaphysical Club which follows a specific group of thinkers (the Pragmatists) who formed much of the foundation of American legal theory. The TLDR: Every legal system is governed primarily by the “moral culture” and constructed to defend/enact/perpetuate that culture. When the moral culture changes enough, the laws will change (or the interpretation or application of the laws for the same de facto effect). So the question for all of us is how to steer the moral culture in preferred directions, which is why I was calling out your initial comment! It’s not good for people to come to the belief that laws don’t matter — such a belief is self-fulfilling at certain scale.

itishappy 2y ago

Spirit or letter? Is it fair to assume you agree killing other human beings is still bad? Is there an alternative system you prefer?

silverquiet 2y ago
Reading back my comment, I probably should have said I have lost faith in "the law". In this context, I mean the idea of gun control, but it's just generally a feeling that there really is no one in control of (American) society at this point. Without getting into a whole thing about the context of killing other human beings and how that matters, I'll just say I know what you mean and say yeah, it's bad to kill people. I'm not talking about personal morality; I live by one that many people would probably find overly restrictive (I certainly do).
- itishappy 2y ago
  Great response, and you're definitely not alone there, that's why I ask! I too find that the intent of "the law" is noble, but it seems to collect hard edges in practice. > I'm not talking about personal morality; I live by one that many people would probably find overly restrictive (I certainly do). Well now I'm interested!
- MaxBarraclough 2y ago
  You might be interested in Bruce Schneier's take on trust and what prevents predatory behaviour. In his book Liars and Outliers he gives a taxonomy of 4 elements: law, reputation, morality, and security. Reputation and law are similar in that they're imposed by a community, but differ in that law follows a formally codified code, and of course the consequences imposed tend to differ. Morality is the internal motivation not to wrong others. Security describes physical/electronic measures that cause the predatory behaviour not to be practical in the first place, or at least raise the bar. Schneier's own summary: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/03/liars_and_outli_5.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/03/liars_and_out... A review, hosted on Schneier's site: https://www.schneier.com/news/archives/2012/12/liars-and-outliers-by-bruce-schneier-review.html https://www.schneier.com/news/archives/2012/12/liars-and-out...

llamaimperative 2y ago

You’re losing touch with reality if you actually don’t think laws modify people’s behaviors, at least in most of the developed world.

silverquiet 2y ago
Reality and I have had a pretty tough relationship, I'll concede that. I think my problem is that I've often seen the other way around - that peoples' behaviors modify the laws. I'm sure quite a bit could be written on that about Donald Trump who is currently in a trial that everyone knows cannot enforce any consequences to him, but for me I think the real moment it came apart was during the pandemic when I was struggling through some bureaucracy to update my car registration. I had the thought that I couldn't believe that the people who refuse to put on a mask to get groceries or whatever actually go do the nonsense that I was trying to get through right then. In contrast, covering your face with a piece of paper seemed really trivial, and yet to so many it was an affront to their identity, and so the mask mandates were ultimately rendered toothless.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  You’re definitely onto something there. I highly recommend the book The Metaphysical Club which follows a specific group of thinkers (the Pragmatists) who formed much of the foundation of American legal theory. The TLDR: Every legal system is governed primarily by the “moral culture” and constructed to defend/enact/perpetuate that culture. When the moral culture changes enough, the laws will change (or the interpretation or application of the laws for the same de facto effect). So the question for all of us is how to steer the moral culture in preferred directions, which is why I was calling out your initial comment! It’s not good for people to come to the belief that laws don’t matter — such a belief is self-fulfilling at certain scale.