4 ms·

> As radical as they might seem, calls for limits on wealth are as old as civilization itself. Well, knowing that, one could reasonably wonder why they never s

> As radical as they might seem, calls for limits on wealth are as old as civilization itself. Well, knowing that, one could reasonably wonder why they never succeed. Could it be something about human nature that prevents utopias and good intentions from working as planned?

moritzwarhier 2y ago
Well, historically they all succeeded, at some point
jrm4 2y ago
It's weird to say they never succeed? By the numbers, you could reasonably argue they've never been tried because it's never been this extreme.
- throwaway11460 2y ago
  Yeah, no people ever sat on thrones from literal solid gold and never owned dozens of giant castles and hundreds of people serving them there...
  - dTal 2y ago
    Let me just run this through the trusty ol' DeSnarkifier 8000... clunk hum DING aha, here we are: "There was severe wealth inequality in the past". Hm! Very true! But it doesn't really advance the discussion from "it's never been this extreme", does it? And to address that point, "dozens of castles" begins to look unimpressive next to the wealth of e.g. Jeff Bezos, whose personal fortune exceeds the entire world GDP until approximately the time of William the Conqueror.
    - throwaway11460 2y ago
      Bezos doesn't own entire states, and he can't use his wealth in the full on-paper value. Literally owning country-sized plots of land, all its natural resources, its people and everything they create including their children, having the privilege to tax all trade going through and assign trade monopolies is incomparable to anything Bezos might own even if he becomes a centi-trillionaire. It was much, much more extreme for most of human history. So much more that I can't actually blame you for this mistake because it's that hard to comprehend how incredible the difference is.
      - username135 2y ago
        Id have to agree. Maybe a better way to think of it is life disparity, or living disparity. Most folks, even those in extreme poverty, are far better off today than if they were in a similar position even 200 years ago.
      - tomohelix 2y ago
        I guess it depends on how you measure "power". By "influence and control lives" metrics, Bezos is more powerful than most medieval kings. Back then, a population of 1-2 millions is quite good for a country with the top ones being around 10-20 millions. Amazon alone directly employs and provide the livelihood for 1.5millions people. That is comparable to a quite a great king in the Middle Age. Amazon also can influence trade and businesses of countless other merchants and groups in other countries unrelated to these 1.5millions employees by means of blocking access to AWS or removing their products from Amazon. Its reach is global, a feat not many kings and emperors of the past could boast.
        throwaway11460 2y ago
        Bezos is nowhere near the lowest medieval noble, much less a king in his power to influence or control lives. Do you really think he could force his employees to fight a war for him? Bezos is not the only option his employees have - but you had no other option than follow your lord's direction in the past. If Bezos blocks my access to AWS, I run my Terraform script on Azure. If he blocks my access to Amazon, I'll buy my next box of useless stuff on AliExpress. 5 minutes and Bezos is no longer part of my life.
        xigoi 2y ago
        While the working conditions in Amazon are presumably not good, it seems disingenuous to imply that Jeff Bezos literally owns the Amazon employees.
- indigoabstract 2y ago
  I meant no lasting solution to inequality has been found so far, certainly not by using force/laws/coercion. Surprisingly, that doesn't seem to discourage certain people to keep trying that path.
sapphicsnail 2y ago
It's not strictly tied to wealth but Athens exiled people for being too powerful all the time. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism Greeks used shards of pottery called ostraca (ostracon in the singular) to vote for people they wanted to exile. Themistocles was a famous general who got exiled and we actually having surviving ostraca with his name on them.
zrn900 2y ago
> Could it be something about human nature that prevents utopias and good intentions from working as planned? Its not 'human nature'. The 'human nature' is cooperative, helpful and 'good' by instinct: scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-probe-human-nature-and-discover-we-are-good-after-all/ Its the minority obsessive-compulsive control freaks and sociopaths who prevent utopias and good intentions from working.
- tonfreed 2y ago
  You create power and those that lust after it are drawn to it like moths to a flame.

moritzwarhier 2y ago

Well, historically they all succeeded, at some point

jrm4 2y ago

It's weird to say they never succeed? By the numbers, you could reasonably argue they've never been tried because it's never been this extreme.

throwaway11460 2y ago
Yeah, no people ever sat on thrones from literal solid gold and never owned dozens of giant castles and hundreds of people serving them there...
- dTal 2y ago
  Let me just run this through the trusty ol' DeSnarkifier 8000... clunk hum DING aha, here we are: "There was severe wealth inequality in the past". Hm! Very true! But it doesn't really advance the discussion from "it's never been this extreme", does it? And to address that point, "dozens of castles" begins to look unimpressive next to the wealth of e.g. Jeff Bezos, whose personal fortune exceeds the entire world GDP until approximately the time of William the Conqueror.
  - throwaway11460 2y ago
    Bezos doesn't own entire states, and he can't use his wealth in the full on-paper value. Literally owning country-sized plots of land, all its natural resources, its people and everything they create including their children, having the privilege to tax all trade going through and assign trade monopolies is incomparable to anything Bezos might own even if he becomes a centi-trillionaire. It was much, much more extreme for most of human history. So much more that I can't actually blame you for this mistake because it's that hard to comprehend how incredible the difference is.
    - username135 2y ago
      Id have to agree. Maybe a better way to think of it is life disparity, or living disparity. Most folks, even those in extreme poverty, are far better off today than if they were in a similar position even 200 years ago.
    - tomohelix 2y ago
      I guess it depends on how you measure "power". By "influence and control lives" metrics, Bezos is more powerful than most medieval kings. Back then, a population of 1-2 millions is quite good for a country with the top ones being around 10-20 millions. Amazon alone directly employs and provide the livelihood for 1.5millions people. That is comparable to a quite a great king in the Middle Age. Amazon also can influence trade and businesses of countless other merchants and groups in other countries unrelated to these 1.5millions employees by means of blocking access to AWS or removing their products from Amazon. Its reach is global, a feat not many kings and emperors of the past could boast.
      - throwaway11460 2y ago
        Bezos is nowhere near the lowest medieval noble, much less a king in his power to influence or control lives. Do you really think he could force his employees to fight a war for him? Bezos is not the only option his employees have - but you had no other option than follow your lord's direction in the past. If Bezos blocks my access to AWS, I run my Terraform script on Azure. If he blocks my access to Amazon, I'll buy my next box of useless stuff on AliExpress. 5 minutes and Bezos is no longer part of my life.
      - xigoi 2y ago
        While the working conditions in Amazon are presumably not good, it seems disingenuous to imply that Jeff Bezos literally owns the Amazon employees.
indigoabstract 2y ago
I meant no lasting solution to inequality has been found so far, certainly not by using force/laws/coercion. Surprisingly, that doesn't seem to discourage certain people to keep trying that path.

sapphicsnail 2y ago

It's not strictly tied to wealth but Athens exiled people for being too powerful all the time. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism Greeks used shards of pottery called ostraca (ostracon in the singular) to vote for people they wanted to exile. Themistocles was a famous general who got exiled and we actually having surviving ostraca with his name on them.

zrn900 2y ago

> Could it be something about human nature that prevents utopias and good intentions from working as planned? Its not 'human nature'. The 'human nature' is cooperative, helpful and 'good' by instinct: scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-probe-human-nature-and-discover-we-are-good-after-all/ Its the minority obsessive-compulsive control freaks and sociopaths who prevent utopias and good intentions from working.

tonfreed 2y ago
You create power and those that lust after it are drawn to it like moths to a flame.