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I’ve been seeing this argument pop up a lot lately, and I’ll try to address it (though frankly, I’m not that smart, so maybe somebody else can explain it better
by runarberg 2y ago
I’ve been seeing this argument pop up a lot lately, and I’ll try to address it (though frankly, I’m not that smart, so maybe somebody else can explain it better).
So what you are trying to claim is that the World Court never explicitly claimed, in direct words, that some of South Africa’s allegations for genocide was plausible, therefor the court never ruled that it is plausible that Israel is committing genocide, and therefor, we have no authority claiming that Israel is committing genocide, and therefor, any claims of Israel committing genocide are unfounded.
First of all I want to address how weak this line of argument is. The ICJ is not the only authority which has claimed plausible genocide (yes, the ICJ did claim that; I’ll come back to that), second, we have plenty of evidence which indicts Israel for the crime of genocide, including, but not limited to South Africa’s filing at the ICJ (see sources on Wikipedia). Even if we take your or Joan Donoghue’s interpretation at face value, raxxorraxor’s claim that “the accusation is ridiculous and lacking any form of sincere analysis and judgement” is it self pretty much wrong.
Second, the court did rule that it is plausible that Israel is committing genocide, by any reasonable interpretation of the ruling. Even though most people cite Article IV paragraph 54 (See [1]; quoted above) as the smoking gun (which it absolutely is) equally relevant is Article II Paragraphs 30-32 where the court decides it has jurisdiction over the case, citing Article IX of the Genocide Convention. The court would not have done that if it did not think it was plausible that Israel were violating the terms of the Genocide Convention. In other words, the court ruled that some of South Africa’s accusations were plausible. And put yet another way, the court decided that it is plausible that Israel is committing the crime of Genocide.
The problem with your interpretation, and your citing of Joan Donoghue’s answer in this context, is that she is actually answering a question relating to the provisional measures ordered by the court on January 26th 2024 (which is what Article IV is all about), and again on March 28th 2024. My personal opinion is that by answering the question this way she is actually being willfully misleading. It is beyond a doubt that the court decided that some of the accusations were plausible, her clarifying and stating that technically the court only decided on provisional measures, is obscuring the fact that it did rule to start investigating Israel for the crime of Genocide.
ICJ member often rules in alignment with their nation’s foreign policy, and Joan Donoghue has shown that to be the case under her presidency, I actually find it a miracle that the court ruled in favor of South Africa under her presidency. My personal belief is that the case against Israel is very obvious, and there was no way the court could rule any other way. This interview is she rectifying US foreign policy, and offering a plausible deniability to what the court actually ruled.
1: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192...
- nolongerthere 2y ago[flagged]
- locallost 2y ago[flagged]
- racional 2y ago[flagged]
- nolongerthere 2y agoJust look at this guy's comment history, it's all there. He denies Jewish history, erases the reality that Jews are undeniably linked to Israel and calls for the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the ME. All the while making spurious unfounded accusations against Jews. I engaged with him for a long time, but ultimately found him to be dishonest and not interested in holding a critical curious discussion.
- racional 2y agoHe denies Jewish history, erases the reality that Jews are undeniably linked to Israel and calls for the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the ME. Can you provide substantiation for the last of these claims, at least? I haven't seen all of this user's comment history -- but I've seen a good chunk of it, and I haven't seen anything that even remotely suggests that they are calling for the ethnic cleansing of anyone from anywhere.
- tptacek 2y agoThis is an odd analysis of the ICJ decision. The decision is preliminary. It finds that the ICJ has jurisdiction over the Israel/Gaza conflict, and that South Africa has standing to bring a case. Given that a plausible case exists, the ICJ considers preliminary measures --- injunctions, essentially --- to preserve South Africa's rights for such a trial. Read Paragraph 62: "The Court is not called upon, for the purposes of its decision on the request for the indication of provisional measures, to establish the existence of breaches of obligations under the Genocide Convention, but to determine whether the circumstances require the indication of provisional measures for the protection of rights under that instrument." The preservation of rights is a procedural matter for the court; they are measures to prevent prejudice against the case, and to prevent the irreparable harms claimed by the plaintiff. The facts under consideration there are viewed in the light favorable to the movant, because they are not in fact a disposition of the question. ["preservation of rights" filetype:pdf] is a good search here. The ICJ did not in fact find that Israel had engaged in acts of genocide. If you use a casual or non-legal definition of "genocide" --- "any campaign of ethnically targeted mass violence" seems like a reasonable one --- this is a live argument. But if you're going to cite chapter and verse from the decision and the Genocide Convention, I think you're clearly on the wrong side of the argument?