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> You’ll have to go all the way to Sudan to find a similar number, Syria was a civil war with who knows how many dead, its over half a million easily. Iraq I'm

> You’ll have to go all the way to Sudan to find a similar number, Syria was a civil war with who knows how many dead, its over half a million easily. Iraq I'm not an expert on but parts of what's happened and still is happening there seems like a civil war to me, number of dead is huge. How is the Israeli-Gaza war a civil war btw? If you don't look at the artificial definition of civil wars, the region is even more violent with millions more dead in conflicts - Yemen / Saudi Arabia, Iran-Iraq etc.

runarberg 2y ago
I assumed my parent was talking about ongoing conflicts and current mortality rates. Of which you’ll have to go all the way to Sudan to find similar numbers.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  I don't get if the conflict was finished a year ago it doesn't count anymore? We're comparing only to on-going conflicts? Right. Makes total sense. Well I assume the current Gaza war will be over soon - in that case we can all just forget about it (?).
  - runarberg 2y ago
    Palestinians were being killed by Israelis in record numbers before Oct 7. Like I said above: Between Jan 1st 2023 and Oct 7th 2023, 278 Palestinians in the West Bank (including 70 children) were killed by either the Israeli army or Israeli settler terrorists. So even if the Gaza genocide ends today and Israel signs the peace treaty offered and accepted by Hamas, we are still looking at number of victims which are nowhere to be found in the region. If we include wars from over 20 years ago, we should also include the numbers of atrocities committed by Israel against Palestinians in the same time period. Including the Great March of Return massacres in 2018-2019 where Israel murdered 223 Palestinians, most of whom were unarmed civilians. Now the total number of Palestinian victims probably won’t come anywhere near the total number of victims of the Iraq war, but a major difference is that Palestine is a lot smaller nations, and has had to suffer repeated atrocities, continuously throughout whichever time period we decide to start counting. But my point here is that Israel’s neighbors are not “kill and displace Muslims at a far greater rate than Israel”.
    - rendall 2y ago
      Even if you take "neighbor" literally as adjacent and so do not care to include Yemen or Sudan, then consider the death rate of Syria. 300 thousand civilians dead and counting. 3,000 Palestinians massacred in the Yarmouk Camp Siege. Ugly, that. You will no doubt be relieved to know that Israel is not the #1 killer of Muslims by any measure, neither now nor in the past. Armed with this new information, you will no doubt become a prominent anti-Assad and -ISIL activist, organizing marches through the streets, calling for a ceasefire?
      - runarberg 2y ago
        What is the point of this whataboutism? Yes there are some metrics where you can find a bigger killer of Muslims then Israel. There are other metrics where Israel is larger. But even still, Israel is killing a lot of people. Being top 5 in killing Muslim is not something you can be proud of by saying, “look at the top 4 muslim killers here”.
        rendall 2y ago
        > What is the point of this whataboutism? I'll answer, but I ask again: do you know what it is about the Palestinian cause that has you so exercised? Above, say, the Syrian or Sudanese or Yemen or Saudi or Iraqi or Lebanese causes, which are all far more deadly, even if you take Hamas' word for it. I mean, maybe you have an excellent reason...? My answer is that there is a lack of perspective when it comes to Israel. It's better that everyone understands the scale of the death and destruction in the region. What the people of Israel risk should the state fall. > Being top 5 in killing Muslim... Not top 5. Not even top 10. Don't take my word for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_th...
        racional 2y ago
        If we start at 1936 (when the conflict in Palestine began in earnest), bucket by country (consistent with the fact that Israel's myriad wars up until the current one have been lumped together in a single "conflict"); and divide by net population -- then Israel's per-capita ranking does seem to take place 5 or so out of the 17 countries involved, in terms of the Arab/Muslim killing business. In terms of immediate neighbors - just behind (and much closer to) Lebanon and Syria, but much greater numerically than Jordan / Egypt / Saudi.
  - racional 2y ago
    I assume the current Gaza war will be over soon - in that case we can all just forget about it (?). Not a chance. What's happening in Gaza now will be no more forgotten than all the other trenches filled with civilian bodies (adult and infant) thanks to the various atrocities of WW II. "Mowing the lawn" it ain't.

runarberg 2y ago

I assumed my parent was talking about ongoing conflicts and current mortality rates. Of which you’ll have to go all the way to Sudan to find similar numbers.

weatherlite 2y ago
I don't get if the conflict was finished a year ago it doesn't count anymore? We're comparing only to on-going conflicts? Right. Makes total sense. Well I assume the current Gaza war will be over soon - in that case we can all just forget about it (?).
- runarberg 2y ago
  Palestinians were being killed by Israelis in record numbers before Oct 7. Like I said above: Between Jan 1st 2023 and Oct 7th 2023, 278 Palestinians in the West Bank (including 70 children) were killed by either the Israeli army or Israeli settler terrorists. So even if the Gaza genocide ends today and Israel signs the peace treaty offered and accepted by Hamas, we are still looking at number of victims which are nowhere to be found in the region. If we include wars from over 20 years ago, we should also include the numbers of atrocities committed by Israel against Palestinians in the same time period. Including the Great March of Return massacres in 2018-2019 where Israel murdered 223 Palestinians, most of whom were unarmed civilians. Now the total number of Palestinian victims probably won’t come anywhere near the total number of victims of the Iraq war, but a major difference is that Palestine is a lot smaller nations, and has had to suffer repeated atrocities, continuously throughout whichever time period we decide to start counting. But my point here is that Israel’s neighbors are not “kill and displace Muslims at a far greater rate than Israel”.
  - rendall 2y ago
    Even if you take "neighbor" literally as adjacent and so do not care to include Yemen or Sudan, then consider the death rate of Syria. 300 thousand civilians dead and counting. 3,000 Palestinians massacred in the Yarmouk Camp Siege. Ugly, that. You will no doubt be relieved to know that Israel is not the #1 killer of Muslims by any measure, neither now nor in the past. Armed with this new information, you will no doubt become a prominent anti-Assad and -ISIL activist, organizing marches through the streets, calling for a ceasefire?
    - runarberg 2y ago
      What is the point of this whataboutism? Yes there are some metrics where you can find a bigger killer of Muslims then Israel. There are other metrics where Israel is larger. But even still, Israel is killing a lot of people. Being top 5 in killing Muslim is not something you can be proud of by saying, “look at the top 4 muslim killers here”.
      - rendall 2y ago
        > What is the point of this whataboutism? I'll answer, but I ask again: do you know what it is about the Palestinian cause that has you so exercised? Above, say, the Syrian or Sudanese or Yemen or Saudi or Iraqi or Lebanese causes, which are all far more deadly, even if you take Hamas' word for it. I mean, maybe you have an excellent reason...? My answer is that there is a lack of perspective when it comes to Israel. It's better that everyone understands the scale of the death and destruction in the region. What the people of Israel risk should the state fall. > Being top 5 in killing Muslim... Not top 5. Not even top 10. Don't take my word for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_th...
        racional 2y ago
        If we start at 1936 (when the conflict in Palestine began in earnest), bucket by country (consistent with the fact that Israel's myriad wars up until the current one have been lumped together in a single "conflict"); and divide by net population -- then Israel's per-capita ranking does seem to take place 5 or so out of the 17 countries involved, in terms of the Arab/Muslim killing business. In terms of immediate neighbors - just behind (and much closer to) Lebanon and Syria, but much greater numerically than Jordan / Egypt / Saudi.
- racional 2y ago
  I assume the current Gaza war will be over soon - in that case we can all just forget about it (?). Not a chance. What's happening in Gaza now will be no more forgotten than all the other trenches filled with civilian bodies (adult and infant) thanks to the various atrocities of WW II. "Mowing the lawn" it ain't.