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TikTok Sues U.S. Government over Law Forcing Sale or Ban
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- xeromal 2y agoAnyone got a link that isn't paywalled? Archive.org is still blocked.
- jimbobthrowawy 2y agohttps://archive.is/Q8pcR https://archive.is/Q8pcR
- newprint 2y agoThis case is very interesting to me. China is clearly using TikTok for the nefarious purposes and it is clearly perceived as threat, while West wasn't able to do anything about it for a while due to Western way of conducting business and following laws.
- krapp 2y agoWhat clearly nefarious purposes are you referring to? As far as I know, the argument for forcing TikTok to divest is simply that Americans don't trust a Chinese owned company not to be used as a secret CCP weapon to undermine American democracy as a pretext to total war (or something,) but TikTok hasn't actually done anything to merit that mistrust. They're just another app full of memes.
- newprint 2y ago> They're just another app full of memes. That meme app got banned from US military bases. > TikTok hasn't actually done anything to merit that mistrust. Between dumping all the info to China and having an excellent exploit window on millions of phones, don't see why we should trust them ?
- krapp 2y agoI don't see why we should trust them any less than our own government and its relationship with every domestic large social media platform. I couldn't care less if China gets my TikTok browsing history or whatever, they can't touch me. I do care that my own government seems to be rapidly trying to censor and weaponize social media while telling me to stay scared of a nebulous foreign enemy they've been trotting out in the name of authoritarianism since the 1950s. All of our data is already being sent to the NSA and they probably already have root on every electronic device you use, and they still kill people over metadata. Meanwhile someone's Google search/maps history can land them behind bars in some states, just for reading the wrong books or searching for the wrong kinds of medicine, because it turns out inalienable rights are very much alienable. So yeah. Tell me why I should be more concerned about what China might do, as opposed to what my own government is already doing?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- alanwreath 2y agoIt’s easy to dream up scenarios from something as simple as the way that China treats GPS: in addition to the regular block-google-maps-from-showing-military-bases they also use an entirely different system whose purpose is only to occlude real locations (https://medium.com/@anastasia.bizyayeva/every-map-of-china-is-wrong-bc2bce145db2 https://medium.com/@anastasia.bizyayeva/every-map-of-china-i...) TikTok harvests the very thing china occludes.
- krapp 2y agoI don't understand what the implied threat is supposed to be here. That TikTok harvests... American GPS data? That the CCP might use TikTok to find the real world locations of American military bases? How would that even work? Why would China need TikTok to accomplish this? They have spy satellites. If they want to send the ICBMs over they already know where Washington DC is. This is comic book logic, this isn't rational.
- orangecat 2y agoAs far as I know, the argument for forcing TikTok to divest is simply that Americans don't trust a Chinese owned company not to be used as a secret CCP weapon Essentially yes, and that seems like a perfectly valid argument to me. TikTok hasn't actually done anything to merit that mistrust They've lied about storing data in China and spied on journalists. But that actually doesn't matter; the point is that it's crazy to allow the Chinese Communist Party to have access to loads of personal information about hundreds of millions of Americans.
- ahtaarra 2y ago[flagged]
- newprint 2y agoSo you are saying that if the US audited the entire TikTok cloud stack and code, this all could have been avoided ?
- ahtaarra 2y agoNot the US govt. but independent audits of TikTok US from e.g. Oracle which never fully went through. I find the Tiktok ban more of a geopolitics thing, less of a national security reponse. You cannot just make assertions about something, and without substantiating them _adequately_, say 'they just told a lie, so everything that they said are lies'. This is rooted in an anti-China rhetoric and only undermines the US position since for more than a decade many western companies' complaints against Chinese partners were about forced technology transfers. Edit: correct wording and grammar
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> say 'they just told a lie, so everything that they said are lies' It wasn’t something random, he lied about the CCP’s access to Americans’ data. It almost doesn’t matter that he lied—the truth per se is enough to warrant suspicion.
- digital_sawzall 2y agoThey did go through and are currently on-going. I though I read that Oracle has full source code access.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoTikTok also lied under oath about where US data is stored [1]. So I’m not sure why anyone should trust anything about them even if they are sold. Even a code and security audit would leave a lot of room for things like AI driven feeds conducting propaganda campaigns. It’s not just code or infrastructure as a point in time but also data. In the end it comes down to trust. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/06/21/tiktok-confirms-data-china-bytedance-security-cfius/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/06/21/tikt...
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y agoNon-paywall link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/07/business/tiktok-ban-appeal.html?unlocked_article_code=1.qE0.7sVh.OZPdKRzAO2O_ https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/07/business/tiktok-ban-appea... Good. I think it should be banned but testing this in court is also very important.
- dhx 2y agoOther than the trademark and brand recognition, is there anything remaining that a US company would want to purchase and be able to use and support? Is the source code written in English? Is TikTok using operating systems, software, scripts, etc that are only in common use within China and don't have ready replacements that a US company would want to alternatively use? Any proprietary software in use which is owned by a Chinese company that doesn't want to sell it? Has the Chinese parent company written excellent documentation in English that could be provided to a successful bidder to get a US team of developers ready to operate and support a sovereign US instance of TikTok? Due to these likely and insurmountable problems, it appears that TikTok is already practically "banned" with 9-12 months notice period. "Banned" perhaps not in the sense of users being unable to access TikTok as hosted in data centres outside of the US (related: Apple being pressured into allowing sideloading), but perhaps "banned" from the perspective of sanctions blocking USD$16 billion in revenue in the US, and similar impacts to European revenue, etc.[1] Will TikTok want to host offshore and cater to US/European customers even though they may receive no revenue from these customers due to financial blockages? [1] https://www.ft.com/content/275bd036-8bc2-4308-a5c9-d288325b91a9 https://www.ft.com/content/275bd036-8bc2-4308-a5c9-d288325b9...
- xeromal 2y agoThe users are the most valuable part.
- abduhl 2y agoTo quote Judge Easterbrook from the 7th Circuit: So what? Who cares? If TikTok and its parent have been remiss in documentation or the ability of the entity to operate on its own in America then that’s their problem. When cigarette advertising was outlawed we didn’t ask whether there was a sufficient alternative advertising pipeline for the tobacco companies to access teens. The law only “bans” TikTok insofar as TikTok refuses to comply. You might say “this is beyond TikTok’s control because China won’t permit it” but why should the USA care about that?
- nashashmi 2y agoThis TikTok ban is mostly about being able to control the media narrative that is being broadcasted on TikTok. The other social media companies seem to be complying with US censorship guidelines. But this is not so for Tiktok which has been accused of promoting pro Hamas content.[1][2] I’m more interested in knowing Would a Bytedance stock IPO in a US stock exchange circumvent the ownership requirements? [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/blinken-romney-israel-hamas-tiktok-b2540021.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... [2] https://news.google.com/search?q=Tiktok%20hamas https://news.google.com/search?q=Tiktok%20hamas
- Ztynovovk 2y ago[dead]
- dudeinjapan 2y agoIPO would not, so long as ByteDance remains a controlling parent. There have been a number of CCP-affiliated companies which have been delisted in US in recent years.
- zeroonetwothree 2y agoThere has been interest in a ban for years. You’ll need stronger evidence than a random comment from someone that wasn’t even involved in passing the bill.
- g8oz 2y agoThe China Hawks would have gotten the ban done years ago if they could have. It doesn't take much to connect the dots here. It was support from the Amen Israel crowd that made this happen. Rep. Mike Lawler who co-sponsored the legislation behind the prospective TikTok ban said as much. https://theintercept.com/2024/05/04/josh-gottheimer-mike-lawler-campus-protests/ https://theintercept.com/2024/05/04/josh-gottheimer-mike-law...
- nashashmi 2y agoThere has been interest before and it died yet the interest resurged after Israel war. Many politicians have said as much. Why else would a TikTok bill be included in a war package for Israel? Every politician can now hide behind the war ammunition argument, while going against the ban in name. Here is another article: https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senator-romney-antony-blinken-tiktok-ban-israel-palestinian-content?utm_source=microsoft https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senato...
- amadeuspagel 2y agoCourt Filing: https://sf16-va.tiktokcdn.com/obj/eden-va2/hkluhazhjeh7jr/AS%20FILED%20TikTok%20Inc.%20and%20ByteDance%20Ltd.%20Petition%20for%20Review%20of%20H.R.%20815%20(2024.05.07)%20(Petition).pdf?x-resource-account=public https://sf16-va.tiktokcdn.com/obj/eden-va2/hkluhazhjeh7jr/AS...
- mrkramer 2y agoIt's funny how TikTok took Vine's short video concept and brought it to another level, meaning US was the original innovator not the Chinese. If Facebook or Google acquired Vine back in the day, TikTok wouldn't probably exist or maybe it would if Google would shut down Vine or if Zuck would screw up Vine. Now US has to deal with the fact that foreign entrepreneurs know also how to make viral apps but let's be honest China is not the one you would trust with your personal phone and your personal data.
- amadeuspagel 2y agoVine had a 6 seconds limit, TikTok has a 10 minute limit now. It's not about short videos, it's about the algorithm.
- mrkramer 2y ago>It's not about short videos, it's about the algorithm. People have short attention span so it was about short videos and yea it's also about discovery algorithm. Vine didn't have a chance at Twitter and now Twitter is going down as well....oh well. Tbh I never used Vine nor TikTok, I just read about them but did Vine have some sort of discovery feature akin to TikTok or YouTube?
- amadeuspagel 2y agoPeople don't have to watch videos to the end, so the attention span doesn't matter.
- mrkramer 2y agoSo if you have a short attention span would you prefer watching 10 minutes of 2 hour movie or you would rather prefer watching 10 minutes of 10 seconds funny videos on TikTok?! Different formats are meant for different purposes, in another words you can't half ass movie, documentary or whatever long form video content type there exists....you have to watch it till the end, either in one go or in multiple takes. For example YouTube became popular because it allowed on demand video of "short" video content, short compared to TV. As kids, teens and people in general became internet dopamine addicts, they sought more faster and "instant" form of entertainment and rest is history. The same conceptual connection can be drawn with traditional "long" form video games and casual and hypercasual mobile games. People became more lazy and and the same time more "thirsty" for dopamine and mobile devs exploited that need with casual and hypercasual mobile games.
- ppollaki 2y agoIf you are a luddite like myself, I would recommend you take a look at this CRS primer about this issue. It’s short, succinct, and provides context with comprehensive citations: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB11127 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB11127
- causal 2y agoThanks for sharing, this is a refreshingly factual take in contrast to the emotionally-charged rants this topic seems to inspire.
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoFor context, here are the powers the FCC has long exercised around foreign ownership of American radio stations [1]. [1] https://www.fcc.gov/general/foreign-ownership-rules-and-policies-common-carrier-aeronautical-en-route-and-aeronautical https://www.fcc.gov/general/foreign-ownership-rules-and-poli...
- jimbobthrowawy 2y agoIs that really applicable? I thought the FCC only had authority over these kinds of stations because the airwaves are a limited public resource.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Is that really applicable? Yes. Congress gave the FCC the power to block foreign control of American radio stations. Rebrand the TikTok bill as a 20% cap on foreign control of social media apps with a laundry list of exceptions (everyone but our adversaries) and it’s in the same ballpark. > because the airwaves are a limited public resource To grant licenses, sure. But the foreign ownership component is orthogonal to that. App stores are our new airwaves.
- _lvbh 2y ago> App stores are our new airwaves App stores aren’t limited except artificially
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> App stores aren’t limited except artificially The point is this limitation is irrelevant. We've had foreign ownership limits on plenty of industries in America, radio is just the closest in being a literal medium of speech.
- throwaway199956 2y agoBut there is no restriction on American listeners tuning in to foreign radio stations. Americans are free to read foreign books, watch foreign news, browse foreign websites.
- beefnugs 2y agoThe most novel thing about this is: popularity has soo little to do with technically good/useful/unique Why is so much effort and money thrown up against these random giants of "popular by chance"? Why not put the same effort and money into trying to make 100 competitors? You might accidentally cause innovation instead of waste
- eviks 2y agoBecause the institutions doing the against part are institutionally incapable of these type of creative endeavors