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So they've officially killed off the last iPad with a home button. Elderly folks let out a collective groan since swapping a simple UI for an additional .5" of

So they've officially killed off the last iPad with a home button. Elderly folks let out a collective groan since swapping a simple UI for an additional .5" of screen space seems like a poor tradeoff.

alephnerd 2y ago
That button is an increasingly expensive component at scale, as it's a separate component to manufacture and build a supply chain for, as well as an additional component to add which can potentially fail. This is why most carmakers are moving towards touchscreens now as well. If you want to keep prices roughly comparable to previous SKUs in the midst of trade and supply chain kerfuffles, there has to be cost cutting somewhere.
- switch007 2y ago
  Apple is indeed struggling and need to cut costs in every conceivable way
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Every company that has some form of manufacturing is doing similar cost reductions. Supply Chain is hard enough in a globalized world, and it's only gotten even harder now that a multi-year pandemic shutdown, trade wars, and tariffs are coming to play.
  - paulmd 2y ago
    The fact that nerds constantly react sardonically like this is unfortunate for multiple areas of tech discussion, just like people react so negatively to the rising costs of gpu SKUs as well. It’s poisonous to actual debate and discussion, just children lashing out in anger that their toys are getting more expensive.
    - switch007 2y ago
      I think this highlights your financial privilege more than anything. And it’s pretty tone deaf during a time of some pretty shocking inflation, not all of which is justified
- wannacboatmovie 2y ago
  Carmakers are moving to touchscreens because they don't have to custom design hard keys for each model and can just reuse the same design in every one, just tweaking the software. It's pure cheapness, not an improvement in any way. Apple has been building the same home button for a decade. It's a simple, familiar interface. iPads cost hundreds of dollars. Engineering the cost of a button out of it at this point is pure greed.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > is shaving pennies off the cost by removing physical buttons These are not pennies at scale. These are 9-10 figure costs at scale. Just using the iPhone 15 Max as an example [0], your BoM is around $550-650 (including labor), but sells for $1,200. 50% margins are not great, especially because the the BoM grew from $400-500 for the iPhone 14 Max (Edit: "The parts costs for the Max series ranged between $400 and $450 during the 2018 to 2021 period", not iPhone 14), which also sold for $1,200. A 50% decrease in margins on the flagship phone is a massive decrease in margins, and it's most likely similar across all Apple SKUs. Every single component if you're in the hardware space costs money and overhead to manage, and supply chain issues can push back releases. This is why companies are moving towards digital displays. It's the same principle why EVs can be more reliable than ICE vehicles due to less parts As an (I presume) Engineer drill the following mantra into your head: MARGINS, MARGINS, MARGINS. This is what gives you your paycheck in the environment we are in today. [0] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-15-teardown-reveals-10-costlier-parts-than-2022-flagship https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-15-teardo...
- albert_e 2y ago
  if Apple of all companies -- after decades of moral high standing about polished user experience and charging a premium for their brand -- is shaving pennies off the cost by removing physical buttons ... that's a shame! if 3nm chip manufacturing receives so much interest -- why not a fraction of that investment in engineering more durable, lasting, and cheap physical components too. years later Apple might be the company doing "radical innovation", being "uncompromising when it comes to UX" and add a physical button and charge a premium for it
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > is shaving pennies off the cost by removing physical buttons These are not pennies at scale. These are 9-10 figure costs at scale. Just using the iPhone 15 Max as an example [0], your BoM is around $550-650 (including labor), but sells for $1,200. 50% margins are not great, especially because the the BoM grew from $400-500 for the iPhone 14 Max (Edit: "The parts costs for the Max series ranged between $400 and $450 during the 2018 to 2021 period", not iPhone 14), which also sold for $1,200. A 50% decrease in margins on the flagship phone is a massive decrease in margins, and it's most likely similar across all Apple SKUs. Every single component if you're in the hardware space costs money and overhead to manage, and supply chain issues can push back releases. This is why companies are moving towards digital displays. It's the same principle why EVs can be more reliable than ICE vehicles due to less parts As an (I presume) Engineer drill the following mantra into your head: MARGINS, MARGINS, MARGINS. This is what gives you your paycheck in the environment we are in today. > if 3nm chip manufacturing receives so much interest -- why not a fraction of that investment in engineering more durable, lasting, and cheap physical components too. 3nm chip manufacturing is expensive and costs money. That money needs to come from somewhere. Turns out, a portion of that budget came from the budget for buttons. [0] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-15-teardown-reveals-10-costlier-parts-than-2022-flagship https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-15-teardo...
    - NhanH 2y ago
      > The 15 Pro Max's cost-to-price ratio, or the cost of the parts divided by the phone's price, came to 47%, a 1 percentage point increase from the 14 Pro Max Your claim is contradicted by the article you linked.
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  Last I heard, carmakers are moving away from touchscreens. Because you can't use them without taking your eyes off the road.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > Last I heard, carmakers are moving away from touchscreens. Depends on the country and margins. For example, Chinese, Indian, and Vietnamese car manufacturers increasingly use touchscreens to minimize the amount of SKUs to manage and because touchscreen display manufacturing is commoditized in developing Asia. The EU is pushing for regulation and limitations around touchscreen displays last month, but it was also around the same time the EU also announced anti-competitive action against Chinese automakers. The US is a mixed bag around touchscreens. Some Chinese makes like a Volvo XC30 or a Polestar will be almost entirely touchscreen driven, and Tesla is also touchscreen driven for cost reasons, but other companies like your GMs or your Stellarises still have buttons, but are increasingly trying to move away.
    - gumby 2y ago
      > Volvo XC30 ... will be almost entirely touchscreen driven, Pretty much blows away the "Volvo is safer" marketing message.
anonymouse008 2y ago
All I'm thinking about is what will Square do now. None of the iPads fit their Square Stand... I loved having a general compute iOS device on the stand for other apps, I hope they don't make us get their dedicated terminal...
kraig911 2y ago
Yeah try as I might I'm not able to help my autistic daughter understand how to process this change. I should probably buy a few of the old ones to keep on standby.
pavelrub 2y ago
What do you mean? The previous iPad Pros didn't have a home button either. The last iPad with a home button was the 9th generation iPad, released in 2021.
- mbrubeck 2y ago
  Apple was still selling new 9th-gen iPads yesterday. As of today, it is no longer in their store. The 10th-generation iPad (first released in 2022) is now the cheapest model you can buy new from Apple.
cletus 2y ago
Don't get me started on the home button. I miss it dearly. The UI/UX of a home button is unmatched by any of the replacement gestures. Some of them are just plain bizaree too eg swipe up, right, up to get your apps. The biggest problem is that swipe up depends on orientation of the app and that's not always clear, particularly if playing video. The app might be orientation locked in landscape even though you're viewing it in landscape. And of course there's Face ID, which I personally hate. I know others like it but the false negative rate is horrendous. Plus they increase "security" by having a really lot limit on failed attempts before you have to enter your passcode anyway. And since attempts can be passive, you can hit the limit pretty often. Touch ID is just better in almost every way. Plus Face ID is an accessibility nightmare as anyone who is vision impaired can tell you. The distance the device needs to be for Face ID to work is not the distance yo use the device at. Every Apple device should have the option of Touch ID on the power button just like the iPad Air does. It's also why I own the iPad Air specifically.
- chrisoverzero 2y ago
  > Some of them are just plain bizaree too eg swipe up, right, up to get your apps. What on Earth are you referring to?
  - hbn 2y ago
    Pretty sure they're talking about popping into recent apps. But that isn't the gesture, you just do a short swipe up and hold for a fraction of a second until you feel the haptic buzz. edit: actually just tried and you can also pull it to the side, but it doesn't feel quite as natural
D13Fd 2y ago
For me at least, it's an excellent trade off. I haven't had an iPad with a home button for years, and I can't imagine why I'd want to give up screen real estate or device size for a button. The swipe interface works perfectly and does the same thing.
jerlam 2y ago
The home button was a nice UI affordance, but it tended to fail after a few years. Every old iPhone and iPad that my parents used had home buttons that didn't click correctly - an minor annoyance in the years where upgrading your phone every two years was normal, but not for the present where people keep their devices for much longer, especially iPads with a much bigger battery. I never had a device with the solid-state home buttons (like the iPhone 7 and 8), but I assume these were not an option due to cost.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  It hasn't been a button in quite some time - their last implementation is a fixed button that doesn't move, the same way the trackpad on Macs doesn't have any switches.

alephnerd 2y ago

That button is an increasingly expensive component at scale, as it's a separate component to manufacture and build a supply chain for, as well as an additional component to add which can potentially fail. This is why most carmakers are moving towards touchscreens now as well. If you want to keep prices roughly comparable to previous SKUs in the midst of trade and supply chain kerfuffles, there has to be cost cutting somewhere.

switch007 2y ago
Apple is indeed struggling and need to cut costs in every conceivable way
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Every company that has some form of manufacturing is doing similar cost reductions. Supply Chain is hard enough in a globalized world, and it's only gotten even harder now that a multi-year pandemic shutdown, trade wars, and tariffs are coming to play.
- paulmd 2y ago
  The fact that nerds constantly react sardonically like this is unfortunate for multiple areas of tech discussion, just like people react so negatively to the rising costs of gpu SKUs as well. It’s poisonous to actual debate and discussion, just children lashing out in anger that their toys are getting more expensive.
  - switch007 2y ago
    I think this highlights your financial privilege more than anything. And it’s pretty tone deaf during a time of some pretty shocking inflation, not all of which is justified
wannacboatmovie 2y ago
Carmakers are moving to touchscreens because they don't have to custom design hard keys for each model and can just reuse the same design in every one, just tweaking the software. It's pure cheapness, not an improvement in any way. Apple has been building the same home button for a decade. It's a simple, familiar interface. iPads cost hundreds of dollars. Engineering the cost of a button out of it at this point is pure greed.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > is shaving pennies off the cost by removing physical buttons These are not pennies at scale. These are 9-10 figure costs at scale. Just using the iPhone 15 Max as an example [0], your BoM is around $550-650 (including labor), but sells for $1,200. 50% margins are not great, especially because the the BoM grew from $400-500 for the iPhone 14 Max (Edit: "The parts costs for the Max series ranged between $400 and $450 during the 2018 to 2021 period", not iPhone 14), which also sold for $1,200. A 50% decrease in margins on the flagship phone is a massive decrease in margins, and it's most likely similar across all Apple SKUs. Every single component if you're in the hardware space costs money and overhead to manage, and supply chain issues can push back releases. This is why companies are moving towards digital displays. It's the same principle why EVs can be more reliable than ICE vehicles due to less parts As an (I presume) Engineer drill the following mantra into your head: MARGINS, MARGINS, MARGINS. This is what gives you your paycheck in the environment we are in today. [0] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-15-teardown-reveals-10-costlier-parts-than-2022-flagship https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-15-teardo...
albert_e 2y ago
if Apple of all companies -- after decades of moral high standing about polished user experience and charging a premium for their brand -- is shaving pennies off the cost by removing physical buttons ... that's a shame! if 3nm chip manufacturing receives so much interest -- why not a fraction of that investment in engineering more durable, lasting, and cheap physical components too. years later Apple might be the company doing "radical innovation", being "uncompromising when it comes to UX" and add a physical button and charge a premium for it
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > is shaving pennies off the cost by removing physical buttons These are not pennies at scale. These are 9-10 figure costs at scale. Just using the iPhone 15 Max as an example [0], your BoM is around $550-650 (including labor), but sells for $1,200. 50% margins are not great, especially because the the BoM grew from $400-500 for the iPhone 14 Max (Edit: "The parts costs for the Max series ranged between $400 and $450 during the 2018 to 2021 period", not iPhone 14), which also sold for $1,200. A 50% decrease in margins on the flagship phone is a massive decrease in margins, and it's most likely similar across all Apple SKUs. Every single component if you're in the hardware space costs money and overhead to manage, and supply chain issues can push back releases. This is why companies are moving towards digital displays. It's the same principle why EVs can be more reliable than ICE vehicles due to less parts As an (I presume) Engineer drill the following mantra into your head: MARGINS, MARGINS, MARGINS. This is what gives you your paycheck in the environment we are in today. > if 3nm chip manufacturing receives so much interest -- why not a fraction of that investment in engineering more durable, lasting, and cheap physical components too. 3nm chip manufacturing is expensive and costs money. That money needs to come from somewhere. Turns out, a portion of that budget came from the budget for buttons. [0] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-15-teardown-reveals-10-costlier-parts-than-2022-flagship https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-15-teardo...
  - NhanH 2y ago
    > The 15 Pro Max's cost-to-price ratio, or the cost of the parts divided by the phone's price, came to 47%, a 1 percentage point increase from the 14 Pro Max Your claim is contradicted by the article you linked.
BurningFrog 2y ago
Last I heard, carmakers are moving away from touchscreens. Because you can't use them without taking your eyes off the road.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > Last I heard, carmakers are moving away from touchscreens. Depends on the country and margins. For example, Chinese, Indian, and Vietnamese car manufacturers increasingly use touchscreens to minimize the amount of SKUs to manage and because touchscreen display manufacturing is commoditized in developing Asia. The EU is pushing for regulation and limitations around touchscreen displays last month, but it was also around the same time the EU also announced anti-competitive action against Chinese automakers. The US is a mixed bag around touchscreens. Some Chinese makes like a Volvo XC30 or a Polestar will be almost entirely touchscreen driven, and Tesla is also touchscreen driven for cost reasons, but other companies like your GMs or your Stellarises still have buttons, but are increasingly trying to move away.
  - gumby 2y ago
    > Volvo XC30 ... will be almost entirely touchscreen driven, Pretty much blows away the "Volvo is safer" marketing message.

anonymouse008 2y ago

All I'm thinking about is what will Square do now. None of the iPads fit their Square Stand... I loved having a general compute iOS device on the stand for other apps, I hope they don't make us get their dedicated terminal...

kraig911 2y ago

Yeah try as I might I'm not able to help my autistic daughter understand how to process this change. I should probably buy a few of the old ones to keep on standby.

pavelrub 2y ago

What do you mean? The previous iPad Pros didn't have a home button either. The last iPad with a home button was the 9th generation iPad, released in 2021.

mbrubeck 2y ago
Apple was still selling new 9th-gen iPads yesterday. As of today, it is no longer in their store. The 10th-generation iPad (first released in 2022) is now the cheapest model you can buy new from Apple.

cletus 2y ago

Don't get me started on the home button. I miss it dearly. The UI/UX of a home button is unmatched by any of the replacement gestures. Some of them are just plain bizaree too eg swipe up, right, up to get your apps. The biggest problem is that swipe up depends on orientation of the app and that's not always clear, particularly if playing video. The app might be orientation locked in landscape even though you're viewing it in landscape. And of course there's Face ID, which I personally hate. I know others like it but the false negative rate is horrendous. Plus they increase "security" by having a really lot limit on failed attempts before you have to enter your passcode anyway. And since attempts can be passive, you can hit the limit pretty often. Touch ID is just better in almost every way. Plus Face ID is an accessibility nightmare as anyone who is vision impaired can tell you. The distance the device needs to be for Face ID to work is not the distance yo use the device at. Every Apple device should have the option of Touch ID on the power button just like the iPad Air does. It's also why I own the iPad Air specifically.

chrisoverzero 2y ago
> Some of them are just plain bizaree too eg swipe up, right, up to get your apps. What on Earth are you referring to?
- hbn 2y ago
  Pretty sure they're talking about popping into recent apps. But that isn't the gesture, you just do a short swipe up and hold for a fraction of a second until you feel the haptic buzz. edit: actually just tried and you can also pull it to the side, but it doesn't feel quite as natural

D13Fd 2y ago

For me at least, it's an excellent trade off. I haven't had an iPad with a home button for years, and I can't imagine why I'd want to give up screen real estate or device size for a button. The swipe interface works perfectly and does the same thing.

jerlam 2y ago

The home button was a nice UI affordance, but it tended to fail after a few years. Every old iPhone and iPad that my parents used had home buttons that didn't click correctly - an minor annoyance in the years where upgrading your phone every two years was normal, but not for the present where people keep their devices for much longer, especially iPads with a much bigger battery. I never had a device with the solid-state home buttons (like the iPhone 7 and 8), but I assume these were not an option due to cost.

rbanffy 2y ago
It hasn't been a button in quite some time - their last implementation is a fixed button that doesn't move, the same way the trackpad on Macs doesn't have any switches.