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So, a new M4 chip, up to 10 cores and all kinds of other hotness...yet Apple is still going to treat the iPad with all its big boy computer parts as just a toy

So, a new M4 chip, up to 10 cores and all kinds of other hotness...yet Apple is still going to treat the iPad with all its big boy computer parts as just a toy computer incapable of compiling code or even giving me a terminal window, let alone run macOS apps. Our house is chocked full of Apple gear, but the idea of spending a cool $1000 on a neutered consumption device gets less appealing with each generation.

user90131313 2y ago
Hey, at least it can have native calculator app now. Lack of understanding the innovation about calculator app is real. It took them decade to make. Macos will take few more decades to integrate. Tech is not exist yet even with M4
ben_w 2y ago
I'm also not in the target market, but it's definitely not "just a toy" simply because it's not suited for hackers like us.
- frereubu 2y ago
  Exactly. I know someone who runs their small company - set design for exhibitions and operas - off an iPad Pro.
alephnerd 2y ago
Conversely, I really like using my iPad Pro as a daily driver (eg. Slides, light blogging, Notion, reading, Zoom, Slack, etc) as most of my core apps and usecases are either PWAs or Apps already. And I think this is the target demographic of the iPad - either creative types (eg. designers or musicians) or executives (eg. Consultants, PMs, etc) who are not code driven but still need a workbook style environment. From a security standpoint it is best for these users to be locked down (Least Privilege is a good security model to follow for non-technical users). P.S. I do have my own ancient Macbook that I installed Ubuntu on for my own light hacking, but most of my personal tinkering dev is now on Cloud GPU instances so all I need is a dumb terminal for SSH.
- bognition 2y ago
  Do you have a physical keyboard mouse that you use?
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    I use the Logitech keyboard case with the trackpad. That and keybindings are good enough for my usecase (but tbf, I started my career as an Eng using Vim so keybindings are second nature to me)
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  >Conversely, I really like using my iPad Pro as a daily driver (eg. Slides, light blogging, Notion, reading, etc) a Which of those things requires an expensive, top-of-the-line tablet?
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    User Experience. A Windows workbook or a Chromebook sucks from a UX standpoint due to either performance issues or driver inoperatbility. Pricing is comparable to a MS Surface or Chromebook Pro.
    - itsoktocry 2y ago
      >A Windows workbook or a Chromebook sucks from a UX standpoint Subjective, but sure, valid. Both of those systems have more flexibility. >Pricing is comparable to a MS Surface or Chromebook Pro. Yes, and I wouldn't be buying one of those for light reading or taking notes in Notion, either.
      - alephnerd 2y ago
        > Yes, and I wouldn't be buying one of those for light reading or taking notes in Notion, either. I'm using it for work, so I am either getting it reimbursed or provided by my employer (in my case), or if I'm running a solo business/self employed (as plenty of creators are) you can get tax credits and a partial reimbursement as it's being used for work as well. Like I mentioned before, the target demographic is Creators or Executives, but also (increasingly) schools. > Both of those systems have more flexibility Absolutely, but that flexibility is a security vector for most non-technical users. There's a reason companies spend 7-8 figures on XDRs like CRWD/S1/Cortex, or are looking to Secure Browsers like Surf, Talon, or Arc.
madjam002 2y ago
I agree, although having bought a Samsung Tab S9 for this reason, it too seems to be very limiting. Samsung Dex is cool and all, but the app selection on Android is worse than iOS and I couldn’t find a way to run Linux since Linux on Dex was killed off.
- TheRoque 2y ago
  Have ou tried Termux ?
  - madjam002 2y ago
    Yeah, it’s good but iOS also has iSH so the experience is pretty similar.
    - natrys 2y ago
      iSH has to do some insane user-mode x86 emulation, resulting in terrible performance penalty. The experience is not even close to similar where termux runs things directly on the metal.
      - madjam002 2y ago
        Depends on your use case, for mine it works fine and feels similar to Termux. The performance of the iPhone 15 also probably plays a part.
- freedomben 2y ago
  Man, Dex is in this horrible spot right now where it's so cool, and so close to being the dream, but misses the mark in a couple of spots (like Linux support) and therefore becomes essentially useless (or rather, toy status). If Samsung fixed a few things like that, I'd be buying the crap out of those tablets.
densh 2y ago
I’d much rather buy fully specced iPad Pro than a MacBook Air if only it wasn’t neutered by the iPad OS. And that probably is an issue for Apple since they don’t want products to canibalize each other. They want you to buy each and every product. As it stands today even first gen iPad Pro 11 is more than powerful enough given software limitations.
criddell 2y ago
> the idea of spending a cool $1000 on a neutered consumption device gets less appealing with each generation It's not for you and that's okay. They sell big boy computers and if you don't like any of them, there are plenty of others. For me, Good Notes and Procreate are killer apps that justify the device. My current iPad is six or seven years old. If I spent $1500 this time around and it lasts me six years, that works out to something like $0.65 per day.
naravara 2y ago
After reading this Verge article about decapitating a MacBook (https://www.theverge.com/22965732/macbook-decapitation-slabtop-mod-mac-studio-event-rumor-keyboard-computer-diy https://www.theverge.com/22965732/macbook-decapitation-slabt...) I couldn’t help but imagine how cool it would be if you could plug an iPad into a keyboard/trackpad case like this and have it switch to running MacOS as soon as you do. There’s a lot of issues with that, like it would be weird if you were doing something in Terminal in “Mac Mode” but then couldn’t go back to to the Terminal window once you take it off your docking station. But that seems pretty solvable.
paxys 2y ago
Yep my 3 year old $299 iPad is already able to stretch iPad OS to its limits. I have no intention of spending $1100+ on an iPad Air/Pro that will add a fancy chip but no functionality to actually use that chip.
dagmx 2y ago
It’s funny seeing the disconnect between the HN community and the creator communities. The creator communities at ecstatic about this. The HN community seems to have difficult seeing uses outside their own niches. There are tons of types of “Pros”. The entire event was art focused. It’s not a toy for the artistic crowd.
- Zambyte 2y ago
  It's a toy after they stop updating it in a few years and you can no longer run new creative software for no good reason. In my book that makes it a toy today too.
  - mynameisvlad 2y ago
    You’re blasting Apple for their obsolescence? The company that has gone out of their way to support phones and tablets _far_ longer than their competitors? Okay, Jan.
    - jraph 2y ago
      On Android, support time is insanely crap. But when Apple support does end, it's game over. I picked up an iPad 2 (from 2011), it's perfectly capable hardware, although a bit slow, but it's only usable for browsing HN and viewing PDFs because one can't upgrade the goddam browser or install an alternative one. Updates ended in 2015, mostly. I could upgrade a One Plus X released in 2015 to Android 7 (Lineage 14.1). An old version, but everything is perfectly usable. Browsers are at their latest versions. Before this, the phone was on stock Android 6, the latest Firefox ran on it. Still bad, because there's no security upgrade, but unofficial builds for the latest versions of Lineage exist on this phone (they will never be official because the goddam kernel can't be upgraded, and newer versions are necessary to support features mandatory for being official, including the way disk encryption is managed). Anyway, phones and tablets are in a sad state overall. They become e-waste way too soon. Android and iOS both have horrible support time. Not more than a few years of updates (with FairPhone probably being the best here, but still a few years). And anything else is pretty much unusable, at least for phones. In comparison, PCs can be upgraded pretty much forever, at least on Linux. Phone constructors are doing this to themselves through lack of standardization and vendor lock in, but I guess they are happy enough with the situation.
alistairSH 2y ago
the idea of spending a cool $1000 on a neutered consumption device Neutered because you can't side-load apps or use it as a dev machine? That's a pretty limited use-case overall. I have an M1 iPad Pro and it's great for moderate photo editing (Photomator or Adobe) and basic "office" stuff.
- drcongo 2y ago
  I have an M1 iPad Pro too and use it heavily for Logic Pro and occasionally for video editing in Final Cut and Luma. Neither of those things is consumption, and it absolutely flies at both. I suspect OP is somewhat in a bubble.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
jjice 2y ago
I don't personally own any Apple products (but use a MacBook for work), but if they iPad had a full desktop OS, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. The form factor and performance is incredible, but the software is the limitation for me.
riffic 2y ago
i'm ignorant but can you jailbreak and install your own general purpose OS on it?
WillAdams 2y ago
and that is why I have a Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360 (and to be fair, a Wacom One 13 screen (gen 1) attached to my MacBook). Probably my next tech purchase will be a Raspberry Pi 5 and a Wacom Movink 13 or second gen. Wacom One 13 --- hopefully it will work as well as the rPi 4 and Wacom One (gen 1) did when I tested them: https://www.reddit.com/r/wacom/comments/16215v6/wacom_one_gen_1_works_perfectly_on_raspberry_pi_4/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wacom/comments/16215v6/wacom_one_ge...
servus45678981 2y ago
There are tools like ISH that lets you compile code. The application situation will definitely improve, not only in the EU, but as seen with the Delta Emulator.
giancarlostoro 2y ago
Yeah... They should have released the iPad Pro and the Macbook Pro with the M4 at the same time. I'm not interested in the M2 anymore. I really want a beefy Macbook Air, but I want it with a high quality processor. Apple seemingly was recognizing that their userbase wanted more a few years back, and it feels like they're disorganized in this regard still.
- faeriechangling 2y ago
  It comes down to logistics more than not understanding what their users want. If they released m4 on iPad Pro and MacBook Air at the same time - they would have had to release later. Apple has also become more conscious of keeping their older hardware in production for longer. Old Apple Watch SoCs become the new HomePod SoC and Apple TV SoC. If they have more of their stuff on the latest and greatest, all their production will have less time to amortise itself, and they would need to either have a greater peak of production output for each product or stockpile and delay releases which is not free when you have such valuable inventory.
soapdog 2y ago
I posted this [1] couple years ago after seeing iPad comments on HN after WWDC. It was true then, and it is still true now. [1]: https://andregarzia.com/2022/06/about-ipads-and-developers.html https://andregarzia.com/2022/06/about-ipads-and-developers.h...
6gvONxR4sf7o 2y ago
Another aspect that's frustrating: only one user per device!
karmakaze 2y ago
I would also much rather use a computer than a tablet. The same was true for desktop apps vs web apps, but web apps have gotten so much better and are cross-platform. Desktop apps instead have become repackaged web-apps. All that's to say that the disparity between tablet and computer apps will fade. Basically anything that's web based could already be on-par (if it supports Safari equally well) with the new keyboard accessory. Until Apple makes touch-screen laptops, there's always going to be some workflows that work better on a tablet.

user90131313 2y ago

Hey, at least it can have native calculator app now. Lack of understanding the innovation about calculator app is real. It took them decade to make. Macos will take few more decades to integrate. Tech is not exist yet even with M4

ben_w 2y ago

I'm also not in the target market, but it's definitely not "just a toy" simply because it's not suited for hackers like us.

frereubu 2y ago
Exactly. I know someone who runs their small company - set design for exhibitions and operas - off an iPad Pro.

alephnerd 2y ago

Conversely, I really like using my iPad Pro as a daily driver (eg. Slides, light blogging, Notion, reading, Zoom, Slack, etc) as most of my core apps and usecases are either PWAs or Apps already. And I think this is the target demographic of the iPad - either creative types (eg. designers or musicians) or executives (eg. Consultants, PMs, etc) who are not code driven but still need a workbook style environment. From a security standpoint it is best for these users to be locked down (Least Privilege is a good security model to follow for non-technical users). P.S. I do have my own ancient Macbook that I installed Ubuntu on for my own light hacking, but most of my personal tinkering dev is now on Cloud GPU instances so all I need is a dumb terminal for SSH.

bognition 2y ago
Do you have a physical keyboard mouse that you use?
- alephnerd 2y ago
  I use the Logitech keyboard case with the trackpad. That and keybindings are good enough for my usecase (but tbf, I started my career as an Eng using Vim so keybindings are second nature to me)
itsoktocry 2y ago
>Conversely, I really like using my iPad Pro as a daily driver (eg. Slides, light blogging, Notion, reading, etc) a Which of those things requires an expensive, top-of-the-line tablet?
- alephnerd 2y ago
  User Experience. A Windows workbook or a Chromebook sucks from a UX standpoint due to either performance issues or driver inoperatbility. Pricing is comparable to a MS Surface or Chromebook Pro.
  - itsoktocry 2y ago
    >A Windows workbook or a Chromebook sucks from a UX standpoint Subjective, but sure, valid. Both of those systems have more flexibility. >Pricing is comparable to a MS Surface or Chromebook Pro. Yes, and I wouldn't be buying one of those for light reading or taking notes in Notion, either.
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      > Yes, and I wouldn't be buying one of those for light reading or taking notes in Notion, either. I'm using it for work, so I am either getting it reimbursed or provided by my employer (in my case), or if I'm running a solo business/self employed (as plenty of creators are) you can get tax credits and a partial reimbursement as it's being used for work as well. Like I mentioned before, the target demographic is Creators or Executives, but also (increasingly) schools. > Both of those systems have more flexibility Absolutely, but that flexibility is a security vector for most non-technical users. There's a reason companies spend 7-8 figures on XDRs like CRWD/S1/Cortex, or are looking to Secure Browsers like Surf, Talon, or Arc.

madjam002 2y ago

I agree, although having bought a Samsung Tab S9 for this reason, it too seems to be very limiting. Samsung Dex is cool and all, but the app selection on Android is worse than iOS and I couldn’t find a way to run Linux since Linux on Dex was killed off.

TheRoque 2y ago
Have ou tried Termux ?
- madjam002 2y ago
  Yeah, it’s good but iOS also has iSH so the experience is pretty similar.
  - natrys 2y ago
    iSH has to do some insane user-mode x86 emulation, resulting in terrible performance penalty. The experience is not even close to similar where termux runs things directly on the metal.
    - madjam002 2y ago
      Depends on your use case, for mine it works fine and feels similar to Termux. The performance of the iPhone 15 also probably plays a part.
freedomben 2y ago
Man, Dex is in this horrible spot right now where it's so cool, and so close to being the dream, but misses the mark in a couple of spots (like Linux support) and therefore becomes essentially useless (or rather, toy status). If Samsung fixed a few things like that, I'd be buying the crap out of those tablets.

densh 2y ago

I’d much rather buy fully specced iPad Pro than a MacBook Air if only it wasn’t neutered by the iPad OS. And that probably is an issue for Apple since they don’t want products to canibalize each other. They want you to buy each and every product. As it stands today even first gen iPad Pro 11 is more than powerful enough given software limitations.

criddell 2y ago

> the idea of spending a cool $1000 on a neutered consumption device gets less appealing with each generation It's not for you and that's okay. They sell big boy computers and if you don't like any of them, there are plenty of others. For me, Good Notes and Procreate are killer apps that justify the device. My current iPad is six or seven years old. If I spent $1500 this time around and it lasts me six years, that works out to something like $0.65 per day.

naravara 2y ago

After reading this Verge article about decapitating a MacBook (https://www.theverge.com/22965732/macbook-decapitation-slabtop-mod-mac-studio-event-rumor-keyboard-computer-diy https://www.theverge.com/22965732/macbook-decapitation-slabt...) I couldn’t help but imagine how cool it would be if you could plug an iPad into a keyboard/trackpad case like this and have it switch to running MacOS as soon as you do. There’s a lot of issues with that, like it would be weird if you were doing something in Terminal in “Mac Mode” but then couldn’t go back to to the Terminal window once you take it off your docking station. But that seems pretty solvable.

paxys 2y ago

Yep my 3 year old $299 iPad is already able to stretch iPad OS to its limits. I have no intention of spending $1100+ on an iPad Air/Pro that will add a fancy chip but no functionality to actually use that chip.

dagmx 2y ago

It’s funny seeing the disconnect between the HN community and the creator communities. The creator communities at ecstatic about this. The HN community seems to have difficult seeing uses outside their own niches. There are tons of types of “Pros”. The entire event was art focused. It’s not a toy for the artistic crowd.

Zambyte 2y ago
It's a toy after they stop updating it in a few years and you can no longer run new creative software for no good reason. In my book that makes it a toy today too.
- mynameisvlad 2y ago
  You’re blasting Apple for their obsolescence? The company that has gone out of their way to support phones and tablets _far_ longer than their competitors? Okay, Jan.
  - jraph 2y ago
    On Android, support time is insanely crap. But when Apple support does end, it's game over. I picked up an iPad 2 (from 2011), it's perfectly capable hardware, although a bit slow, but it's only usable for browsing HN and viewing PDFs because one can't upgrade the goddam browser or install an alternative one. Updates ended in 2015, mostly. I could upgrade a One Plus X released in 2015 to Android 7 (Lineage 14.1). An old version, but everything is perfectly usable. Browsers are at their latest versions. Before this, the phone was on stock Android 6, the latest Firefox ran on it. Still bad, because there's no security upgrade, but unofficial builds for the latest versions of Lineage exist on this phone (they will never be official because the goddam kernel can't be upgraded, and newer versions are necessary to support features mandatory for being official, including the way disk encryption is managed). Anyway, phones and tablets are in a sad state overall. They become e-waste way too soon. Android and iOS both have horrible support time. Not more than a few years of updates (with FairPhone probably being the best here, but still a few years). And anything else is pretty much unusable, at least for phones. In comparison, PCs can be upgraded pretty much forever, at least on Linux. Phone constructors are doing this to themselves through lack of standardization and vendor lock in, but I guess they are happy enough with the situation.

alistairSH 2y ago

the idea of spending a cool $1000 on a neutered consumption device Neutered because you can't side-load apps or use it as a dev machine? That's a pretty limited use-case overall. I have an M1 iPad Pro and it's great for moderate photo editing (Photomator or Adobe) and basic "office" stuff.

drcongo 2y ago
I have an M1 iPad Pro too and use it heavily for Logic Pro and occasionally for video editing in Final Cut and Luma. Neither of those things is consumption, and it absolutely flies at both. I suspect OP is somewhat in a bubble.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

jjice 2y ago

I don't personally own any Apple products (but use a MacBook for work), but if they iPad had a full desktop OS, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. The form factor and performance is incredible, but the software is the limitation for me.

riffic 2y ago

i'm ignorant but can you jailbreak and install your own general purpose OS on it?

WillAdams 2y ago

and that is why I have a Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360 (and to be fair, a Wacom One 13 screen (gen 1) attached to my MacBook). Probably my next tech purchase will be a Raspberry Pi 5 and a Wacom Movink 13 or second gen. Wacom One 13 --- hopefully it will work as well as the rPi 4 and Wacom One (gen 1) did when I tested them: https://www.reddit.com/r/wacom/comments/16215v6/wacom_one_gen_1_works_perfectly_on_raspberry_pi_4/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wacom/comments/16215v6/wacom_one_ge...

servus45678981 2y ago

There are tools like ISH that lets you compile code. The application situation will definitely improve, not only in the EU, but as seen with the Delta Emulator.

giancarlostoro 2y ago

Yeah... They should have released the iPad Pro and the Macbook Pro with the M4 at the same time. I'm not interested in the M2 anymore. I really want a beefy Macbook Air, but I want it with a high quality processor. Apple seemingly was recognizing that their userbase wanted more a few years back, and it feels like they're disorganized in this regard still.

faeriechangling 2y ago
It comes down to logistics more than not understanding what their users want. If they released m4 on iPad Pro and MacBook Air at the same time - they would have had to release later. Apple has also become more conscious of keeping their older hardware in production for longer. Old Apple Watch SoCs become the new HomePod SoC and Apple TV SoC. If they have more of their stuff on the latest and greatest, all their production will have less time to amortise itself, and they would need to either have a greater peak of production output for each product or stockpile and delay releases which is not free when you have such valuable inventory.

soapdog 2y ago

I posted this [1] couple years ago after seeing iPad comments on HN after WWDC. It was true then, and it is still true now. [1]: https://andregarzia.com/2022/06/about-ipads-and-developers.html https://andregarzia.com/2022/06/about-ipads-and-developers.h...

6gvONxR4sf7o 2y ago

Another aspect that's frustrating: only one user per device!

karmakaze 2y ago

I would also much rather use a computer than a tablet. The same was true for desktop apps vs web apps, but web apps have gotten so much better and are cross-platform. Desktop apps instead have become repackaged web-apps. All that's to say that the disparity between tablet and computer apps will fade. Basically anything that's web based could already be on-par (if it supports Safari equally well) with the new keyboard accessory. Until Apple makes touch-screen laptops, there's always going to be some workflows that work better on a tablet.