5 ms·

I think many of my most favorite games have been AA games. Though "what counts as AA" is probably a big question. Hi-Fi Rush, was a delightful game that earned

I think many of my most favorite games have been AA games. Though "what counts as AA" is probably a big question. Hi-Fi Rush, was a delightful game that earned every $ I spent, but didn't feel like a AAA title. Hades is a delightful game that earned every penny but which wasn't a "AAA" title. I wouldn't call either games "indie", as they both had dozens of people on the teams that made them. But I'd also guess that both games were still made by very different size teams (e.g. 2 dozen vs 5 dozen).

aaomidi 2y ago
Deep rock galactic Dave the diver Spiritfairer Frostpunk Should i keep going?
- masklinn 2y ago
  Dave the diver is definitely not an "AA" game. It's so indie looking it was nominated for multiple indie awards (even if it's not an actual indie game). DRG is not AA either, according to its homepage GhostShip has 32 people 4 years after launching it. Same for Spiritfairer, it was built by a team of 16.
  - wlesieutre 2y ago
    Wasn’t the case earlier in development since they didn’t have big financial backing, Ghost Ship only grew after DRG had sales > Deep Rock Galactic aired a trailer at E3 2017, then the game had a huge bump after its Steam Early Access and Xbox Game Preview launch in February 2018. Its Early Access didn't skyrocket the game "insanely high" like titles such as Valheim, but Pedersen said it was solid enough to know they had a success. At that time there were only 12 employees, and everyone was contracted "because we didn't know if we'd have money the next month." https://gamerant.com/deep-rock-galactic-interview-ghost-ship-history-player-growth-3-million/ https://gamerant.com/deep-rock-galactic-interview-ghost-ship...
    - masklinn 2y ago
      > Ghost Ship only grew after DRG had sales Well yes that's what I said, I didn't find what numbers they had at the time but I indicated that they had 32 people (which generally falls short of AA in the first place) 4 years after launching a successful game, so they'd most likely have had even less before then.
  - ClimaxGravely 2y ago
    I personally would consider 10-40 person teams to potentially qualify as AA. Often we also outsource code/art so the team size can sometimes be misleading. I suppose I would go by the budget. Maybe 5-10million+ IMO. It also kind of depends how they spend the money. EDIT : After some further reflection, From personal experience I'd consider a AA game one where everyone on the dev team knows each other fairly well. AAA games get so large that you don't end up knowing everyone super well by the end of the project.
    - masklinn 2y ago
      > I suppose I would go by the budget. Maybe 5-10million+ IMO. Which is not really useful, because we usually don't have budgets. Team size x development time might be an approximation for it, but if you assume an average salary of 80k and a development time of 30 months, by your reckoning AA is a team of 50... which is basically the low end of what's normally considered an AA team size. > From personal experience I'd consider a AA game one where everyone on the dev team knows each other fairly well. AAA games get so large Team Meat is just two people, four if you include the producer and the composer, I would very much assume they knew each other fairly well, but there's no meaningful interpretation of AA where Super Meat Boy is an AA game.
      - ClimaxGravely 2y ago
        > Which is not really useful, because we usually don't have budgets. The majority of the AAA/AA projects I've worked on have budgets. I'm struggling to think of a project that didn't have a budget. > Team Meat is just two people, four if you include the producer and the composer, I would very much assume they knew each other fairly well, but there's no meaningful interpretation of AA where Super Meat Boy is an AA game. Of course you would expect a small indie team of 2-4 to know each other. I'm saying that once you hit AAA size teams that no longer becomes feasible.
        masklinn 2y ago
        > The majority of the AAA/AA projects I've worked on have budgets. I'm struggling to think of a project that didn't have a budget. We don't have budgets, as in the people not involved in the project don't have any access to the projects so have no way to "rate" on that metric. > Of course you would expect a small indie team of 2-4 to know each other. I'm saying that once you hit AAA size teams that no longer becomes feasible. How is that relevant? This here discussion is about the lower limit of AA, not the higher one.
iLoveOncall 2y ago
I get that "indie" is often viewed as the 3rd option alongside AAA and AA but I don't think that's the right definition. For me AAA and AA is about scope of the project. The 3rd option is "small", not "indie". Hades (I don't know Hi-Fi Rush) is by all means a small game, regardless of how many developers worked on it. Same for Minecraft, or many of the games that other commentors posted. You want a good measure? Check the price. AAA are $60, AA are around $40 and small games are below. PS: out of topic but I just saw that Hades 2 is out in early access.
- ang_cire 2y ago
  Sadly, people use indie to mean small, rather than it's actual meaning of "independent of a publisher", and it's one of those things that I've nearly given up on fighting. It's even more sad because the only reason that change happened was big publishers wanting in on the success of indie games as a label and concept, but by definition being excluded, so they pushed their own definition, and people gobbled up their corporate cooption.
  - masklinn 2y ago
    > Sadly, people use indie to mean small, rather than it's actual meaning of "independent of a publisher" That is way too imprecise a description for it to possibly be considered correct. Indie is about financial and creative independence aka the publisher does not drive the game. Many indies still go through publishers because they don't have the means or knowledge to handle distribution. This was even more so back when you had to distribute via physical media, but they start looking for publishers once the game is done or in good shape. For instance back when they built Bastion SuperGiant had just 7 people and it was entirely self-funded. But they went to WB for publishing, mainly to ensure getting it on XBLA would not be too much of a hassle.
    - ambichook 2y ago
      indie is literally a shortening of independent though, the term i believe originated from musicians who would release their music without a label to publish them

aaomidi 2y ago

Deep rock galactic Dave the diver Spiritfairer Frostpunk Should i keep going?

masklinn 2y ago
Dave the diver is definitely not an "AA" game. It's so indie looking it was nominated for multiple indie awards (even if it's not an actual indie game). DRG is not AA either, according to its homepage GhostShip has 32 people 4 years after launching it. Same for Spiritfairer, it was built by a team of 16.
- wlesieutre 2y ago
  Wasn’t the case earlier in development since they didn’t have big financial backing, Ghost Ship only grew after DRG had sales > Deep Rock Galactic aired a trailer at E3 2017, then the game had a huge bump after its Steam Early Access and Xbox Game Preview launch in February 2018. Its Early Access didn't skyrocket the game "insanely high" like titles such as Valheim, but Pedersen said it was solid enough to know they had a success. At that time there were only 12 employees, and everyone was contracted "because we didn't know if we'd have money the next month." https://gamerant.com/deep-rock-galactic-interview-ghost-ship-history-player-growth-3-million/ https://gamerant.com/deep-rock-galactic-interview-ghost-ship...
  - masklinn 2y ago
    > Ghost Ship only grew after DRG had sales Well yes that's what I said, I didn't find what numbers they had at the time but I indicated that they had 32 people (which generally falls short of AA in the first place) 4 years after launching a successful game, so they'd most likely have had even less before then.
- ClimaxGravely 2y ago
  I personally would consider 10-40 person teams to potentially qualify as AA. Often we also outsource code/art so the team size can sometimes be misleading. I suppose I would go by the budget. Maybe 5-10million+ IMO. It also kind of depends how they spend the money. EDIT : After some further reflection, From personal experience I'd consider a AA game one where everyone on the dev team knows each other fairly well. AAA games get so large that you don't end up knowing everyone super well by the end of the project.
  - masklinn 2y ago
    > I suppose I would go by the budget. Maybe 5-10million+ IMO. Which is not really useful, because we usually don't have budgets. Team size x development time might be an approximation for it, but if you assume an average salary of 80k and a development time of 30 months, by your reckoning AA is a team of 50... which is basically the low end of what's normally considered an AA team size. > From personal experience I'd consider a AA game one where everyone on the dev team knows each other fairly well. AAA games get so large Team Meat is just two people, four if you include the producer and the composer, I would very much assume they knew each other fairly well, but there's no meaningful interpretation of AA where Super Meat Boy is an AA game.
    - ClimaxGravely 2y ago
      > Which is not really useful, because we usually don't have budgets. The majority of the AAA/AA projects I've worked on have budgets. I'm struggling to think of a project that didn't have a budget. > Team Meat is just two people, four if you include the producer and the composer, I would very much assume they knew each other fairly well, but there's no meaningful interpretation of AA where Super Meat Boy is an AA game. Of course you would expect a small indie team of 2-4 to know each other. I'm saying that once you hit AAA size teams that no longer becomes feasible.
      - masklinn 2y ago
        > The majority of the AAA/AA projects I've worked on have budgets. I'm struggling to think of a project that didn't have a budget. We don't have budgets, as in the people not involved in the project don't have any access to the projects so have no way to "rate" on that metric. > Of course you would expect a small indie team of 2-4 to know each other. I'm saying that once you hit AAA size teams that no longer becomes feasible. How is that relevant? This here discussion is about the lower limit of AA, not the higher one.

iLoveOncall 2y ago

I get that "indie" is often viewed as the 3rd option alongside AAA and AA but I don't think that's the right definition. For me AAA and AA is about scope of the project. The 3rd option is "small", not "indie". Hades (I don't know Hi-Fi Rush) is by all means a small game, regardless of how many developers worked on it. Same for Minecraft, or many of the games that other commentors posted. You want a good measure? Check the price. AAA are $60, AA are around $40 and small games are below. PS: out of topic but I just saw that Hades 2 is out in early access.

ang_cire 2y ago
Sadly, people use indie to mean small, rather than it's actual meaning of "independent of a publisher", and it's one of those things that I've nearly given up on fighting. It's even more sad because the only reason that change happened was big publishers wanting in on the success of indie games as a label and concept, but by definition being excluded, so they pushed their own definition, and people gobbled up their corporate cooption.
- masklinn 2y ago
  > Sadly, people use indie to mean small, rather than it's actual meaning of "independent of a publisher" That is way too imprecise a description for it to possibly be considered correct. Indie is about financial and creative independence aka the publisher does not drive the game. Many indies still go through publishers because they don't have the means or knowledge to handle distribution. This was even more so back when you had to distribute via physical media, but they start looking for publishers once the game is done or in good shape. For instance back when they built Bastion SuperGiant had just 7 people and it was entirely self-funded. But they went to WB for publishing, mainly to ensure getting it on XBLA would not be too much of a hassle.
  - ambichook 2y ago
    indie is literally a shortening of independent though, the term i believe originated from musicians who would release their music without a label to publish them