7 ms·
- licensing ensures only a minimum level of quality - people with licenses still do interviews, often just as grueling - licensed careers with high performers
by citizen_friend 2y ago
- licensing ensures only a minimum level of quality
- people with licenses still do interviews, often just as grueling
- licensed careers with high performers (lawyers, doctors, ib, etc) have other forms of filtering which are much more painful, like years of low pay internships
Studying for a few weeks to solve fun puzzles to make 400k sounds like a deal to me.
- cenamus 2y agoHearing from people that did internships in other fields for almost nothing, during which CS students make more than most workers really drove that point home for me.
- gedy 2y agoMaybe for the devs, but "solves fun puzzles" is not a measure of quality either. The number of people who "aced the interview" but are borderline worthless for real product development is not trivial in my experience.
- citizen_friend 2y agoI still haven’t met the guy who is an algorithms genius who can’t program, but I can guarantee a license isn’t going to solve that problem.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y agoBut being able to program is table stakes to be an effective developer. There better be a lot more to the interview if you are hoping to find rounded developers with proven experience at the level you are hiring for.
- citizen_friend 2y agoFor engineers at the mid to low level where leet code dominates the trait to select for is ability to program and be reasonable to work with.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y agoAt entry level fore sure, but not everyone is going to be equal after 5-10 years of experience. They'll all be able to code of course, but some will have gained valuable experience and moved on in capability and some won't, which of course is why you interview to be selective - to find those who can do more than just regurgitate LeetCode solutions.
- arcticbull 2y ago> They'll all be able to code of course... I promise you that's not the case, lol.
- gedy 2y ago"Programming" is only half the battle. E.g. doesn't overcomplicate the codebase with weird one-off solutions, can actually work on features, some of which (God forbid) involve a UI or existing code. In 20 years, most leetcode style genius types I've worked with really aren't great at this type of SaaS work.
- gopher_space 2y agoWhat you want is someone who can break down a problem to the point where they can use the scientific method to come up with an algorithm on their own. What you get is someone with canned responses in their head. And resultant mass layoffs. We're trying to automate picking just the right puppy instead of going out and playing with a few of them.
- weezin 2y agoProgramming is a very small part of the battle of being an effective software engineer. It leaves out: - communicating - teaching - dealing with ambiguity - navigating politics - working cross-functionally Most high level individual contributors at large tech companies don't even code.
- tracker1 2y agoAs an addendum to "communicating" is documentation. That said, plenty of those who do document/communicate well can still suck at teaching/training at a higher level.
- rockemsockem 2y agoWhat makes you say they don't even code? In my experience coding is indeed drastically reduced, but high level ICs still regularly code.
- weezin 2y agoLooking at their commit history.
- whimsicalism 2y agoi have experienced a lot of people who have convinced themselves they are adding value despite not coding, yes
- weezin 2y agoSystem design isn't coding and reviewing all designs across 40+ people and leading cross team tech initiatives is a full time job.
- humansareok1 2y agoIt's not about being able to program. It's much more about product sense and system design.
- fileeditview 2y agoOnly in other countries than the US there are also these interviews and you make far from 400k :)
- Paul-Craft 2y agoEven in the US, "$400k" is almost certainly an outlier and not the typical case. Ever notice how people making these claims never provide data about actual comp distributions? I've been an engineer for almost 10 years and never had an offer come close to $400k per year.
- Domenic_S 2y agoIt's the typical case for Bay Area-HQ tech companies, at essentially all levels for Tier-1 companies, higher levels at Tier-2/3 companies, and specialist roles beyond that. "software engineering" doesn't print money any more than being "in finance" does, you'll make more or less depending on what company you do it for.
- pseudalopex 2y ago> It's the typical case for Bay Area-HQ tech companies, at essentially all levels for Tier-1 companies, higher levels at Tier-2/3 companies What are the tiers? It's close to typical for a Bay Area Google L5 according to levels.fyi.
- whimsicalism 2y agotiers are about the quality of the company, not the internal leveling. Google would be a tier1-2, Uber/Lyft/Netflix would be tier 1, Adobe would be tier 2-3, etc.
- pseudalopex 2y agoThe point was companies usually considered tier 1 like Google did not have such compensation. What makes Lyft higher quality than Google?
- speeder 2y agoWhat kind of job pay 400k? Even when I worked as C++ guru at BMW and was hired as very senior my before taxes compensation was 40k (year).
- michaelt 2y agoPerhaps they meant to say "studying for a few weeks to solve fun puzzles, after getting a CS degree from Stanford, moving to a city where a basic apartment costs $1 million, and getting 8-10 years FAANG experience, also like half that $400k is stock not cash" But no licensing!
- citizen_friend 2y agoNone of these things are true of me actually. Skill based interview is an equalizer which overcomes status education. And fine divide the salary by 2 and it’s still better than most “licensed” careers
- tracker1 2y agoNot to mention those of us who are self-taught and don't do as well in formal learning environments. One can be higher functioning, but not learn the same as others. It's harder to work around at times, and I do have to use various coping mechanisms in practice (same as setting lots of alarms for meetings through the day). I don't always do as well in converting literal leet code pre-screenings online though. I'd rather do a take-home type assignment (actually make a solution for X) or a person to person screening, where I can ask followup questions to better understand what I'm solving for in context.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- fnfjfk 2y agoStock in public companies is effectively equivalent to cash, so what’s the difference? Sell on vest and buy index funds or anything you want.
- teeray 2y ago> - licensing ensures only a minimum level of quality… people with licenses still do interviews, often just as grueling Agreed, I never asserted against these two points. The point of licensure is to make the first round, which is fairly routine at this point, more equitable and less susceptible to probabilistic effects. It also frees labor from administering this exam round to every candidate.
- rockemsockem 2y agoHow often do other industries relicense? How often would you propose relicensing for programming jobs? My concern would be skill atrophy between relicensing and then you'd still want to do the same sorts of interviews.
- pseudalopex 2y agoOther industries do not require repeating the license exam. Many have continuing education or other professional development requirements. These can be expensive and time consuming but not difficult generally.
- xandrius 2y agoCan I join your bubble?
- pseudalopex 2y ago> people with licenses still do interviews, often just as grueling The licensed engineers I know think software interviews are insane.
- citizen_friend 2y agoAnd most mech/ee make <150k. A closer comparison is IB.
- pseudalopex 2y agoHow is income relevant to the claim interviews are often just as grueling in licensed careers? Most software developers make <$150,000.[1] The median aerospace engineer makes 99% of the median software developer wage.[2] Probably the median licensed aerospace engineer makes more. The aerospace engineers I know think software interviews are insane. Lawyers and doctors I know think software interviews and their professions' filters are insane. I know nothing about investment banking interviews. But investment banking is known for hazing. [1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm [2] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172011.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172011.htm