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Ukraine Has Changed Too Much to Compromise with Russia

22 points by peutetre 2y ago

mitchbob 2y ago
https://archive.ph/2024.05.07-111230/https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/05/ukraine-change-compromise-russia/678312/ https://archive.ph/2024.05.07-111230/https://www.theatlantic...
netsharc 2y ago
Key paragraph, in my opinion: > My peers and I wanted our country to have clean streets, polite police, and government officials who would resign at the exposure of petty corruption scandals. We wanted to be able to start businesses without passing money under the table, and to trust that courts of law would render justice. What we did not want were irremovable, lifetime dictators who packed the government with cronies on the take and sent goons to beat us up in the streets. Putin and his fans think it's NATO expansion policies that brainwashes "the woke" to want to join the "western" (NATO/US/EU) sphere of influence, so attacking Ukraine to stop that is fair game, or "It's their fault they got attacked, they wanted to join 'the west'!". But what people want are clear laws and predictable officials, not ones that make up crap as they go along (as well as depending on the size of your "donation") to benefit themselves. Not that the "west" can be seen as clean, it even managed to elect Trump, who's now stacked the justice system with his followers and is looking to steal the election by appointing corrupt officials state-by-state. And as much as the EU is better than the alternative, it's a huge joke, with people like Jean-Claude Juncker who was not pro-public but pro-corporations, and the inept Van der Leyen (barf) who's there because (I assume) cronyism. Or the way they're handling crimes against humanity depending on which aggressor country is commiting the murder of innocent civilians... No fucking wonder people are buying the lies of populists saying they'll make shit great again. For more on corruption and how it makes the citizenry give up on its government, this is a nice article/review of a book on that topic: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/19/corruption-revolt https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/19/corruption-rev...
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  > What we did not want were irremovable, lifetime dictators who packed the government with cronies on the take And what they got is an irremovable Zelensky with cronies so corrupt they even stole the SUVs that GM donated to evacuate refugees and drove them to work (https://babel.ua/en/amp/news/86252-bihus-info-deputy-head-of-the-presidential-office-kyrylo-tymoshenko-drives-an-suv-that-was-given-to-ukraine-for-humanitarian-purposes https://babel.ua/en/amp/news/86252-bihus-info-deputy-head-of...) > But what people want are clear laws and predictable officials, not ones that make up crap as they go along Ousting a president in a coup is not making things up as they go along? Or is it only bad when Trump tries it?
  - libertine 2y ago
    > And what they got is an irremovable Zelensky with cronies so corrupt they even stole the SUVs that GM donated to evacuate refugees and drove them to work Do you even think about what you say, or do you just copy and paste Russian cheap propaganda? Like, Ukraine is being invaded in an annexation war, and arguably, genocide. They have Martial Law, which is used for these exact purposes. And you're complaining that Zelenksy is "irremovable", coming from a supporter of Russia which is captured by one corrupt man who murders, arrests and presses political opposition. Don't you find this even remotely absurd? Like, do you even realize Zelenksy was democratically elected +70% of votes, and Putin was never democratically elected to represent Russians?
    - hsyehbeidhh 2y ago
      We do think. And we do read propaganda on both sides. And then we make up our mind. Or would you rather ban us like the EU banned RT and Zelenskyy the opposition parties? Think different.
      - libertine 2y ago
        Well let me ask you this: would it make sense for Poland to have banned the Nazi Media, and the Nazi Party from Poland after they were invaded?

22 points by peutetre 2y ago

https://archive.ph/2024.05.07-111230/https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/05/ukraine-change-compromise-russia/678312/ https://archive.ph/2024.05.07-111230/https://www.theatlantic...

netsharc 2y ago

Key paragraph, in my opinion: > My peers and I wanted our country to have clean streets, polite police, and government officials who would resign at the exposure of petty corruption scandals. We wanted to be able to start businesses without passing money under the table, and to trust that courts of law would render justice. What we did not want were irremovable, lifetime dictators who packed the government with cronies on the take and sent goons to beat us up in the streets. Putin and his fans think it's NATO expansion policies that brainwashes "the woke" to want to join the "western" (NATO/US/EU) sphere of influence, so attacking Ukraine to stop that is fair game, or "It's their fault they got attacked, they wanted to join 'the west'!". But what people want are clear laws and predictable officials, not ones that make up crap as they go along (as well as depending on the size of your "donation") to benefit themselves. Not that the "west" can be seen as clean, it even managed to elect Trump, who's now stacked the justice system with his followers and is looking to steal the election by appointing corrupt officials state-by-state. And as much as the EU is better than the alternative, it's a huge joke, with people like Jean-Claude Juncker who was not pro-public but pro-corporations, and the inept Van der Leyen (barf) who's there because (I assume) cronyism. Or the way they're handling crimes against humanity depending on which aggressor country is commiting the murder of innocent civilians... No fucking wonder people are buying the lies of populists saying they'll make shit great again. For more on corruption and how it makes the citizenry give up on its government, this is a nice article/review of a book on that topic: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/19/corruption-revolt https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/19/corruption-rev...

riehwvfbk 2y ago
> What we did not want were irremovable, lifetime dictators who packed the government with cronies on the take And what they got is an irremovable Zelensky with cronies so corrupt they even stole the SUVs that GM donated to evacuate refugees and drove them to work (https://babel.ua/en/amp/news/86252-bihus-info-deputy-head-of-the-presidential-office-kyrylo-tymoshenko-drives-an-suv-that-was-given-to-ukraine-for-humanitarian-purposes https://babel.ua/en/amp/news/86252-bihus-info-deputy-head-of...) > But what people want are clear laws and predictable officials, not ones that make up crap as they go along Ousting a president in a coup is not making things up as they go along? Or is it only bad when Trump tries it?
- libertine 2y ago
  > And what they got is an irremovable Zelensky with cronies so corrupt they even stole the SUVs that GM donated to evacuate refugees and drove them to work Do you even think about what you say, or do you just copy and paste Russian cheap propaganda? Like, Ukraine is being invaded in an annexation war, and arguably, genocide. They have Martial Law, which is used for these exact purposes. And you're complaining that Zelenksy is "irremovable", coming from a supporter of Russia which is captured by one corrupt man who murders, arrests and presses political opposition. Don't you find this even remotely absurd? Like, do you even realize Zelenksy was democratically elected +70% of votes, and Putin was never democratically elected to represent Russians?
  - hsyehbeidhh 2y ago
    We do think. And we do read propaganda on both sides. And then we make up our mind. Or would you rather ban us like the EU banned RT and Zelenskyy the opposition parties? Think different.
    - libertine 2y ago
      Well let me ask you this: would it make sense for Poland to have banned the Nazi Media, and the Nazi Party from Poland after they were invaded?