5 ms·

I don't see a 'fundamental' problem here at all. Yes, place the German solar panels in a region where the sun is shining more intensely and constantly over the

by sasvari 14y ago

I don't see a 'fundamental' problem here at all. Yes, place the German solar panels in a region where the sun is shining more intensely and constantly over the whole year and you get a lot more power out of it. And IMHO _that_ is the problem: nations with these areas haven't installed this capacity, and effectively Germany is significantly responsible for the massive decline in the cost of PV. So the question is: why hasn't a country with more and more intense sunlight hasn't done it? And why aren't they scaling up massively now, with the price of PV much much lower than when Germany decided to do it?

orijing 14y ago
That's a great question. Take the US as an example, since it has plenty of sunshine. Nowadays investment in renewable energies is politically risky after the Solyndra failure, after the DOE gave Solyndra over half a billion dollars of loan guarantees. After the dramatic failure of its own renewable energy initiative, it began attacking other countries' initiatives to expand solar use. For example: "The U.S. yesterday imposed tariffs of as much as 250 percent on Chinese-made solar cells to aid domestic manufacturers beset by foreign competition, though critics said the decision may end up raising prices and hurting the U.S. renewable energy industry." [1] It's a sad state when the US government--presiding over one of the sunniest and advanced nations in the world--will not only refuse to sponsor domestic initiatives to bolster renewable energy development, but also punish countries that do. [1] http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/18/1092726/-250-Tariff-on-Chinese-Solar-Cells http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/18/1092726/-250-Tariff...
- Klinky 14y ago
  I honestly don't think tariffs on Chinese solar panels is a bad thing. China devalues it's dollar, it's people & it's environment already. Plus they've stolen some US "green tech"[1]. I don't think they are playing on a level field. [1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-15/china-corporate-espionage-boom-knocks-wind-out-of-u-s-companies.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-15/china-corporate-esp...
  - orijing 14y ago
    That depends on whose perspective you're looking from. From the US solar manufacturer's perspective, of course it's not a bad thing, since it stifles competition. But from the perspective of people in the US who want solar panels, or Chinese producers of solar panels, it definitely is a bad thing. Also, the link you supplied doesn't mention a word about solar--so punishing solar companies in order to "get back at" wind companies just doesn't make sense. Moreover, it isn't the case anymore that the Yuan is unambiguously undervalued. Many things are more expensive in China (in exchange-weighted nominal terms) than in the US, such as cars, electronics, etc. Also, in terms of the current account surplus, it is considered "normal" now [1]. [1] http://www.economist.com/node/21553041 http://www.economist.com/node/21553041
    - Klinky 14y ago
      Not everyone wants the cheapest thing possible without caring who made it or how it was made. Tariffs are not to punish China because they stole wind tech, that is something that should be properly resolved in Chinese courts, but somehow I doubt that the US company is going to find proper restitution there. It's just an illustration of how unfriendly China can be to US competition. Copy tech & then go home & hide behind a convoluted & foreigner unfriendly court system. The central Chinese government will do what it thinks is best for itself. This may involve squashing human rights, lax worker safety, destroying their environment, manipulating markets with currency(regardless of where the Yuan is right now) or raw materials. China is not above doing what it takes to benefit it's own manufacturers. I don't see why the US should not investigate benefiting it's own manufacturers as well. You could say that people will suffer because they won't get super cheap solar panels made under questionable circumstances, but honestly more people need to look beyond the price tag & at the "true costs".
      - orijing 14y ago
        I don't disagree that the US government should and tries to do what's best for itself (to the extent possible within the constructs of the political system...). I'm just saying that I believe it's not in its interests ultimately to levy such a heavy tariff on solar panels, regardless of where they're from. You may disagree on this, as many will disagree with China's policies. I'd love to get cheap, subsidized solar panels--better if it's not subsidized by my own taxes. I just think levying a punitive tariff goes against even the spirit of self interest.
nknight 14y ago
A lot of the countries you're talking about are relatively poor. Many of them are going to need international help to make a concerted push. Others are already working on such things, they're just behind Germany. Oil-producing countries, for example, have started to pay a lot of attention to renewable power and other green initiatives, so they can use less of their oil domestically, but it's just getting started.

by sasvari 14y ago

orijing 14y ago

That's a great question. Take the US as an example, since it has plenty of sunshine. Nowadays investment in renewable energies is politically risky after the Solyndra failure, after the DOE gave Solyndra over half a billion dollars of loan guarantees. After the dramatic failure of its own renewable energy initiative, it began attacking other countries' initiatives to expand solar use. For example: "The U.S. yesterday imposed tariffs of as much as 250 percent on Chinese-made solar cells to aid domestic manufacturers beset by foreign competition, though critics said the decision may end up raising prices and hurting the U.S. renewable energy industry." [1] It's a sad state when the US government--presiding over one of the sunniest and advanced nations in the world--will not only refuse to sponsor domestic initiatives to bolster renewable energy development, but also punish countries that do. [1] http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/18/1092726/-250-Tariff-on-Chinese-Solar-Cells http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/18/1092726/-250-Tariff...

Klinky 14y ago
I honestly don't think tariffs on Chinese solar panels is a bad thing. China devalues it's dollar, it's people & it's environment already. Plus they've stolen some US "green tech"[1]. I don't think they are playing on a level field. [1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-15/china-corporate-espionage-boom-knocks-wind-out-of-u-s-companies.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-15/china-corporate-esp...
- orijing 14y ago
  That depends on whose perspective you're looking from. From the US solar manufacturer's perspective, of course it's not a bad thing, since it stifles competition. But from the perspective of people in the US who want solar panels, or Chinese producers of solar panels, it definitely is a bad thing. Also, the link you supplied doesn't mention a word about solar--so punishing solar companies in order to "get back at" wind companies just doesn't make sense. Moreover, it isn't the case anymore that the Yuan is unambiguously undervalued. Many things are more expensive in China (in exchange-weighted nominal terms) than in the US, such as cars, electronics, etc. Also, in terms of the current account surplus, it is considered "normal" now [1]. [1] http://www.economist.com/node/21553041 http://www.economist.com/node/21553041
  - Klinky 14y ago
    Not everyone wants the cheapest thing possible without caring who made it or how it was made. Tariffs are not to punish China because they stole wind tech, that is something that should be properly resolved in Chinese courts, but somehow I doubt that the US company is going to find proper restitution there. It's just an illustration of how unfriendly China can be to US competition. Copy tech & then go home & hide behind a convoluted & foreigner unfriendly court system. The central Chinese government will do what it thinks is best for itself. This may involve squashing human rights, lax worker safety, destroying their environment, manipulating markets with currency(regardless of where the Yuan is right now) or raw materials. China is not above doing what it takes to benefit it's own manufacturers. I don't see why the US should not investigate benefiting it's own manufacturers as well. You could say that people will suffer because they won't get super cheap solar panels made under questionable circumstances, but honestly more people need to look beyond the price tag & at the "true costs".
    - orijing 14y ago
      I don't disagree that the US government should and tries to do what's best for itself (to the extent possible within the constructs of the political system...). I'm just saying that I believe it's not in its interests ultimately to levy such a heavy tariff on solar panels, regardless of where they're from. You may disagree on this, as many will disagree with China's policies. I'd love to get cheap, subsidized solar panels--better if it's not subsidized by my own taxes. I just think levying a punitive tariff goes against even the spirit of self interest.

nknight 14y ago

A lot of the countries you're talking about are relatively poor. Many of them are going to need international help to make a concerted push. Others are already working on such things, they're just behind Germany. Oil-producing countries, for example, have started to pay a lot of attention to renewable power and other green initiatives, so they can use less of their oil domestically, but it's just getting started.