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>> This is why the streets in Israel are full of gigantic demonstrations about the return of the hostages. Yes, what may not be clear is that those people are

>> This is why the streets in Israel are full of gigantic demonstrations about the return of the hostages. Yes, what may not be clear is that those people are demonstrating for the return of the hostages, not the end of the massacre of the Palestinians. They couldn't care less about the Palestinians. As I point out in another comment there is widespread support among the Israeli public for the war and near zero concern about what it will do to Palestinian civilians, including children.

tptacek 3y ago
This is false.
- YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
  You keep ignoring every link I post here and still insist you understand the situation. The Israeli public has embraced the Smotrich doctrine https://www.972mag.com/smotrich-decisive-plan-israeli-public/ https://www.972mag.com/smotrich-decisive-plan-israeli-public... As trauma of October 7 massacres endures, Israeli support for Gaza war remains high https://www.itv.com/news/2023-10-13/israeli-president-says-gazans-could-have-risen-up-to-fight-hamas https://www.itv.com/news/2023-10-13/israeli-president-says-g... How Israeli youth helped usher in the farthest right-wing government ever https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/2/23/23609584/israel-right-wing-young-voters-palestine https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/2/23/23609584/israel...
  - tptacek 3y ago
    Even the dumbest Google search will quickly get you examples of protests against the IDF's operations in Gaza right now. Try [protest (some-Israeli-city)]. I don't care what +972 thinks the Israeli public thinks about Gazans.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
      Those are demonstrations to return the hostages, not to stop killing Palestinians. First page of results on google and ddg: Polls Show Broad Support in Israel for Gaza’s Destruction and Starvation https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-israel-for-gazas-destruction-and-starvation/ https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-is... Netanyahu might be losing ground, but his politics still resonate with most Israelis https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/israel-gaza-war-netanyahu-polling/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/israel-gaza... Enduring pain keeps public support for Gaza war strong in Israel https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/enduring-pain-keeps-public-support-gaza-war-strong-israel-2024-01-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/enduring-pain-keep... What Israelis Think of the War With Hamas https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/ https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/ War on Gaza: Majority of Israelis support withholding aid to Gaza until captives returned https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-majority-israelis-vote-withholding-aid-gaza-until-captives-are-returned-poll-shows https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-majority-israeli...
      - tptacek 3y ago
        You've reached the point where you're trying to make a point by citing Truthout. That's fine, you can take places like that seriously, but I do not, and a list of analyses about how Israelis really want the hostages returned isn't refuting my point. It's fine if we simply disagree here.
    - runarberg 3y ago
      I’ve mostly been getting my news about these protests from English language news (particularly Democracy Now!) so I may be wrong about this, but I don’t recall at any point they even mention Palestinians in these protests. They seem to be against the war, and against the current government, solely because they want the hostages home. Now, I want to be clear, I’m not blaming the protestors (I know many here on HN are going to these protests, and all the power to you for that). And I’m certainly not going to accuse any individual protestor of not caring about Palestinians. But from my eyes, through the English language news, it certainly does not seem to be a priority, nor even a consideration, for the public at large in Israel, that Palestinians get justice and liberation from these years and years of political neglect and human rights violations. If you compare this to the Iraq war protests in the USA, which I will not deny were more about bringing the troops home then about the lives of Iraqis, but the lives and conditions of Iraqis was always at least a part of the conversations. I’m not seeing this int the “Bring Them Home Now” protests in Israel. The hostages are not the main focus, but the only focus. Consideration for Palestinian lives is completely absent. When I see protests which actually consider Palestinian lives, it is not these mass demonstrations like we see with the “Bring Them Home Now” protests, but rather, very few individual anti-Zionist activists, who seem to get pretty disproportionate treatment from the Israeli police. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war_protests_in_Israel#Anti-war_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war_prote... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/2/14/israels-war-on-gaza-live-afraid-to-leave-as-israel-fires-on-hospital?update=2706304 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/2/14/israels-wa...
      - YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
        I also get my news from Democracy Now :) There was an interview with Omer Bartov last week, where I think he broached the subject of the Israeli public's concern about the lives of the Palestinians and it wasn't good. I think this was the video: https://youtu.be/Ie3InYIVXF8?si=E0bdNNTQ2vr3Ysfs https://youtu.be/Ie3InYIVXF8?si=E0bdNNTQ2vr3Ysfs Apologies but I don't have time now to search it to find the place where he talks about Israelis' opinions, or to check that's the right one. I'll try to do it later today, if you're interested. Bartov is one of the calmest and most sensible voices around these days. He seems completely incapable of accepting that his country is committing a genocide and has argued eruditely and logically against it, but I guess that's understandable. I listen to that guy every chance I get.
    - racional 3y ago
      [Examples of protests against the IDF's operations in Gaza right now] These are also described as "rare", and tend to get broken up by authorities for "harming the feelings of the public" and whatnot. The vast majority are led by the Bring Them Home Now movement or are otherwise unequivocally focused on the return of the hostages.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        It's not hard to find explicitly anti-war protests from organizations on the Israeli left, but if you yourself were building a program to mobilize opposition to the war in Gaza, what would you lead with? Every march for the return of hostages is implicitly (or explicitly) demanding that Netanyahu complete a ceasefire deal with Hamas. 3/4 of polled Israelis now want Netanyahu gone, and the numbers don't get much better for his defense and intelligence teams.
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Is this the conversion getting more thoughtful as it goes on? If even "the dumbest" Google search can show what you're saying, maybe you could provide these dummies with a link? You're dismissing their sources out of hand without any rebuttal while at the same time quoting various figures with no source at all.
        tptacek 3y ago
        I don't understand what you're asking, but 'runarberg upthread just posted a clear example. I'm uncomfortable with the whole enterprise of trying to characterize the thoughts and feelings of 7 million people, so the idea of doing a dueling cites thing is unappealing to me. If anyone on this thread wants to read that as a concession, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

tptacek 3y ago

This is false.

YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
You keep ignoring every link I post here and still insist you understand the situation. The Israeli public has embraced the Smotrich doctrine https://www.972mag.com/smotrich-decisive-plan-israeli-public/ https://www.972mag.com/smotrich-decisive-plan-israeli-public... As trauma of October 7 massacres endures, Israeli support for Gaza war remains high https://www.itv.com/news/2023-10-13/israeli-president-says-gazans-could-have-risen-up-to-fight-hamas https://www.itv.com/news/2023-10-13/israeli-president-says-g... How Israeli youth helped usher in the farthest right-wing government ever https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/2/23/23609584/israel-right-wing-young-voters-palestine https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/2/23/23609584/israel...
- tptacek 3y ago
  Even the dumbest Google search will quickly get you examples of protests against the IDF's operations in Gaza right now. Try [protest (some-Israeli-city)]. I don't care what +972 thinks the Israeli public thinks about Gazans.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
    Those are demonstrations to return the hostages, not to stop killing Palestinians. First page of results on google and ddg: Polls Show Broad Support in Israel for Gaza’s Destruction and Starvation https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-israel-for-gazas-destruction-and-starvation/ https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-is... Netanyahu might be losing ground, but his politics still resonate with most Israelis https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/israel-gaza-war-netanyahu-polling/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/israel-gaza... Enduring pain keeps public support for Gaza war strong in Israel https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/enduring-pain-keeps-public-support-gaza-war-strong-israel-2024-01-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/enduring-pain-keep... What Israelis Think of the War With Hamas https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/ https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/ War on Gaza: Majority of Israelis support withholding aid to Gaza until captives returned https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-majority-israelis-vote-withholding-aid-gaza-until-captives-are-returned-poll-shows https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-majority-israeli...
    - tptacek 3y ago
      You've reached the point where you're trying to make a point by citing Truthout. That's fine, you can take places like that seriously, but I do not, and a list of analyses about how Israelis really want the hostages returned isn't refuting my point. It's fine if we simply disagree here.
  - runarberg 3y ago
    I’ve mostly been getting my news about these protests from English language news (particularly Democracy Now!) so I may be wrong about this, but I don’t recall at any point they even mention Palestinians in these protests. They seem to be against the war, and against the current government, solely because they want the hostages home. Now, I want to be clear, I’m not blaming the protestors (I know many here on HN are going to these protests, and all the power to you for that). And I’m certainly not going to accuse any individual protestor of not caring about Palestinians. But from my eyes, through the English language news, it certainly does not seem to be a priority, nor even a consideration, for the public at large in Israel, that Palestinians get justice and liberation from these years and years of political neglect and human rights violations. If you compare this to the Iraq war protests in the USA, which I will not deny were more about bringing the troops home then about the lives of Iraqis, but the lives and conditions of Iraqis was always at least a part of the conversations. I’m not seeing this int the “Bring Them Home Now” protests in Israel. The hostages are not the main focus, but the only focus. Consideration for Palestinian lives is completely absent. When I see protests which actually consider Palestinian lives, it is not these mass demonstrations like we see with the “Bring Them Home Now” protests, but rather, very few individual anti-Zionist activists, who seem to get pretty disproportionate treatment from the Israeli police. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war_protests_in_Israel#Anti-war_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war_prote... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/2/14/israels-war-on-gaza-live-afraid-to-leave-as-israel-fires-on-hospital?update=2706304 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/2/14/israels-wa...
    - YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
      I also get my news from Democracy Now :) There was an interview with Omer Bartov last week, where I think he broached the subject of the Israeli public's concern about the lives of the Palestinians and it wasn't good. I think this was the video: https://youtu.be/Ie3InYIVXF8?si=E0bdNNTQ2vr3Ysfs https://youtu.be/Ie3InYIVXF8?si=E0bdNNTQ2vr3Ysfs Apologies but I don't have time now to search it to find the place where he talks about Israelis' opinions, or to check that's the right one. I'll try to do it later today, if you're interested. Bartov is one of the calmest and most sensible voices around these days. He seems completely incapable of accepting that his country is committing a genocide and has argued eruditely and logically against it, but I guess that's understandable. I listen to that guy every chance I get.
  - racional 3y ago
    [Examples of protests against the IDF's operations in Gaza right now] These are also described as "rare", and tend to get broken up by authorities for "harming the feelings of the public" and whatnot. The vast majority are led by the Bring Them Home Now movement or are otherwise unequivocally focused on the return of the hostages.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      It's not hard to find explicitly anti-war protests from organizations on the Israeli left, but if you yourself were building a program to mobilize opposition to the war in Gaza, what would you lead with? Every march for the return of hostages is implicitly (or explicitly) demanding that Netanyahu complete a ceasefire deal with Hamas. 3/4 of polled Israelis now want Netanyahu gone, and the numbers don't get much better for his defense and intelligence teams.
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Is this the conversion getting more thoughtful as it goes on? If even "the dumbest" Google search can show what you're saying, maybe you could provide these dummies with a link? You're dismissing their sources out of hand without any rebuttal while at the same time quoting various figures with no source at all.
        tptacek 3y ago
        I don't understand what you're asking, but 'runarberg upthread just posted a clear example. I'm uncomfortable with the whole enterprise of trying to characterize the thoughts and feelings of 7 million people, so the idea of doing a dueling cites thing is unappealing to me. If anyone on this thread wants to read that as a concession, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.