4 ms·

This seems more like an Apple move than a Microsoft move. It's a pretty common opinion nowadays that Apple is the worst in the bunch; beating the pants off any

This seems more like an Apple move than a Microsoft move. It's a pretty common opinion nowadays that Apple is the worst in the bunch; beating the pants off any unethical stuff Microsoft might be up to -- or was up to even back in the day. I'd imagine Microsoft just needed to be on board so that they didn't get left out and screwed over by this down the line. I am completely mystified by how these companies get together and work with each other on things like this.

eridius 14y ago
Citation please. Your "common opinion" has never actually been backed up with any evidence that I've seen.
- 1234the1234 14y ago
  Well there's HTC and Samsung for just patents and the basic old crush the competition in the court room that I can think off Psystar eMachines Microsoft But the "common opinion" is most definitely because of how they really opened the door to this being main stream practice with the Samsung lawsuit.
- coderdude 14y ago
  You want a citation that proves it's a common opinion now? People express that opinion on here all the time. You're not going to find them in the Apple threads, obviously. Or do you want me to painstakingly back up this opinion with citations of how their closed ecosystem, strong arming (or outright disallowing) of their competition in the app store, and patent bullying is making them evil?
  - Steko 14y ago
    He wants you to justify your claim. Obviously you can't so I guess loud noises are in order.
    - coderdude 14y ago
      I don't owe him 30 minutes of my time. Simply because I don't choose to fulfill his request for information does not mean that I'm here to make "loud noises." If he was actually interested and not just challenging my point because he doesn't share my opinion then he could have done this... https://www.google.com/search?q=how+is+apple+evil https://www.google.com/search?q=how+is+apple+evil ...to get an idea of what I meant by common opinion. That "citation please" thing is a quick and easy way to try and derail anyone's argument who isn't willing to spend real time digging crap up. It's perfectly fine by me if this makes me "lose the argument."
      - Steko 14y ago
        OTOH a quick and easy way to make your argument is to claim everyone holds it. Let's inspect your claim: "It's a pretty common opinion nowadays that Apple is the worst in the bunch; beating the pants off any unethical stuff Microsoft might be up to -- or was up to even back in the day." Let's examine your first piece of evidence: they have a closed ecosystem. Let examine something MS is famous for doing back in the day: destroying Netscape No one in their right mind would put these in the same league, I don't know why you nonchalantly claim not only that they are but Apple's worse and that this "beats the pants off" MS in the evilness department. Let's examine another one of your pieces of evidence: the removal of RA's app because it reverse engineered a private API or something. Let's compare this to something else MS was famous for back in the day: bankrolling SCO's attempt to kill linux. Well clearly again if we had a scale of evilness with Nathan Myrvold being a 10 and Hitler 100, MS might be a solid 6-8 and Apple maybe a 1-3. So you can keep defending what you said til the end of time but I'm going to call it total bullshit and be done with it here.
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      - astrodust 14y ago
astrodust 14y ago
> It's a pretty common opinion nowadays... Apple is not the worst of the bunch. You have nothing to qualify that statement other than a hand-waving gesture. The undisputed #1 king of patent trolls is former Microsoft CTO Nathan Myhrvold's company Intellectual Ventures and its various holding companies that sue anyone and everyone with patents that contain no technology but do contain lots of language that's very lawsuit friendly as the claims are sweepingly broad. Recently they tried to sue a large number of small developers that were using "in app purchasing" technology. Number two is Microsoft who is extorting upwards of $15 per Android phone sold from a number of vendors as part of their "fair licensing" program even though zero Microsoft code is used in those phones. Number three would be Oracle if only they could get better lawyers and a more agreeable jury. Apple has been fighting to push back at the tide of design violations put forward by companies like Samsung and others. If you can name even one instance of where Apple has directly sued a small company over a technology patent I would be surprised. You seem to have absolutely no idea what Microsoft was up to "even back in the day" because it was far worse than anything Apple has ever done. Remember the bait-and-switch with OS/2? The pricing scheme where DOS was $60 and the very same DOS + Windows was $30? Where companies like Dell had to pay a license fee on every machine sold regardless of if it was sold with Windows or not? The way they would switch up Windows to "break" other competing applications like WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3? You seem to have forgotten that it was an arms-length Microsoft deal that enabled SCO to turn zombie and threatening hundreds if not thousands of companies that were simply using Linux, not even developing their own software. The reason you're completely mystified is because you haven't done any research.
- yuhong 14y ago
  "Remember the bait-and-switch with OS/2? " Ah, one of my favorite topics. Why did it take ten years after Intel released the 386 before 32-bit protected mode apps become common? Yea, the MS/IBM JDA was not particularly good, but the alternative MS took was much worse.
  - astrodust 14y ago
    There was Windows 386 but that hardly counts as it was for multi-tasking DOS applications, something Desqview had already done for years. What was shocking, as you hint at, was how Microsoft, which had been encouraging OS/2 as their "serious" OS for years, dumped that and somehow managed to convince people that Windows 3.1 was better. It was like going from a space ship to a party full of clowns. Wasn't it possible to write Windows apps in 16 bit mode then?

eridius 14y ago

Citation please. Your "common opinion" has never actually been backed up with any evidence that I've seen.

1234the1234 14y ago
Well there's HTC and Samsung for just patents and the basic old crush the competition in the court room that I can think off Psystar eMachines Microsoft But the "common opinion" is most definitely because of how they really opened the door to this being main stream practice with the Samsung lawsuit.
coderdude 14y ago
You want a citation that proves it's a common opinion now? People express that opinion on here all the time. You're not going to find them in the Apple threads, obviously. Or do you want me to painstakingly back up this opinion with citations of how their closed ecosystem, strong arming (or outright disallowing) of their competition in the app store, and patent bullying is making them evil?
- Steko 14y ago
  He wants you to justify your claim. Obviously you can't so I guess loud noises are in order.
  - coderdude 14y ago
    I don't owe him 30 minutes of my time. Simply because I don't choose to fulfill his request for information does not mean that I'm here to make "loud noises." If he was actually interested and not just challenging my point because he doesn't share my opinion then he could have done this... https://www.google.com/search?q=how+is+apple+evil https://www.google.com/search?q=how+is+apple+evil ...to get an idea of what I meant by common opinion. That "citation please" thing is a quick and easy way to try and derail anyone's argument who isn't willing to spend real time digging crap up. It's perfectly fine by me if this makes me "lose the argument."
    - Steko 14y ago
      OTOH a quick and easy way to make your argument is to claim everyone holds it. Let's inspect your claim: "It's a pretty common opinion nowadays that Apple is the worst in the bunch; beating the pants off any unethical stuff Microsoft might be up to -- or was up to even back in the day." Let's examine your first piece of evidence: they have a closed ecosystem. Let examine something MS is famous for doing back in the day: destroying Netscape No one in their right mind would put these in the same league, I don't know why you nonchalantly claim not only that they are but Apple's worse and that this "beats the pants off" MS in the evilness department. Let's examine another one of your pieces of evidence: the removal of RA's app because it reverse engineered a private API or something. Let's compare this to something else MS was famous for back in the day: bankrolling SCO's attempt to kill linux. Well clearly again if we had a scale of evilness with Nathan Myrvold being a 10 and Hitler 100, MS might be a solid 6-8 and Apple maybe a 1-3. So you can keep defending what you said til the end of time but I'm going to call it total bullshit and be done with it here.
      - deleted 14y ago
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    - astrodust 14y ago

astrodust 14y ago

> It's a pretty common opinion nowadays... Apple is not the worst of the bunch. You have nothing to qualify that statement other than a hand-waving gesture. The undisputed #1 king of patent trolls is former Microsoft CTO Nathan Myhrvold's company Intellectual Ventures and its various holding companies that sue anyone and everyone with patents that contain no technology but do contain lots of language that's very lawsuit friendly as the claims are sweepingly broad. Recently they tried to sue a large number of small developers that were using "in app purchasing" technology. Number two is Microsoft who is extorting upwards of $15 per Android phone sold from a number of vendors as part of their "fair licensing" program even though zero Microsoft code is used in those phones. Number three would be Oracle if only they could get better lawyers and a more agreeable jury. Apple has been fighting to push back at the tide of design violations put forward by companies like Samsung and others. If you can name even one instance of where Apple has directly sued a small company over a technology patent I would be surprised. You seem to have absolutely no idea what Microsoft was up to "even back in the day" because it was far worse than anything Apple has ever done. Remember the bait-and-switch with OS/2? The pricing scheme where DOS was $60 and the very same DOS + Windows was $30? Where companies like Dell had to pay a license fee on every machine sold regardless of if it was sold with Windows or not? The way they would switch up Windows to "break" other competing applications like WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3? You seem to have forgotten that it was an arms-length Microsoft deal that enabled SCO to turn zombie and threatening hundreds if not thousands of companies that were simply using Linux, not even developing their own software. The reason you're completely mystified is because you haven't done any research.

yuhong 14y ago
"Remember the bait-and-switch with OS/2? " Ah, one of my favorite topics. Why did it take ten years after Intel released the 386 before 32-bit protected mode apps become common? Yea, the MS/IBM JDA was not particularly good, but the alternative MS took was much worse.
- astrodust 14y ago
  There was Windows 386 but that hardly counts as it was for multi-tasking DOS applications, something Desqview had already done for years. What was shocking, as you hint at, was how Microsoft, which had been encouraging OS/2 as their "serious" OS for years, dumped that and somehow managed to convince people that Windows 3.1 was better. It was like going from a space ship to a party full of clowns. Wasn't it possible to write Windows apps in 16 bit mode then?