3 ms·

Visuals are the big missing piece. Any text-based discussion will build different visions in each reader's head. Often, everyone agrees on the text description,

by danjl 2y ago

Visuals are the big missing piece. Any text-based discussion will build different visions in each reader's head. Often, everyone agrees on the text description, and then, when a designer draws a picture, everyone disagrees because they weren't really aligned, they all assumed everyone shared their own personal vision. I love the concept of building a better way of discussing things asynchronously, but I would put visuals (images, videos, diagrams) at the center of that forum and overcome the biggest issue with visuals -- that they are often hard to make for many people. All the mentioned alternatives tie comments to a particular user and relate comments (responses) to other comments. Instead, the conversation could be focused on the topic of discussion, which is often best described as a set of visuals describing the concept. Rather than responding to comments, you could organize comments around the associated component of the problem as it is described visually. This would allow multiple individuals to support a concept, rather than just amplifying or criticizing a particular user's comment. This might even help avoid defensive behavior since the problem is the focus rather than a particular person's comment.

noiv 2y ago
I think when a group wants to build something you’re right - images help, but when you want to make a group build something text is often enough.
danjl 2y ago
Heh, perhaps you could use the text comments to constantly update a visual description generated by AI? That way, nobody needs to make a drawing. Conversely, nobody has direct control over the visuals. I envision a UI where people type their comment into a text box, that comment is sent to the server which is constantly updating the "visuals that describe the idea". Each client updates their UI with the new visuals along with providing some way of attaching all the comments to the visual images/videos/diagrams. IOW, the AI-generated visuals are the center of the client UI, rather than just a scrolling tape of comments. Clients can then navigate the discussion by diving into different components of the discussion. Maybe there's even an AI-generated summary of some sort. Essentially, the AI is playing the role of a Designer drawing pictures in a side channel and a smart assistant who is constantly updating a summary abstract.
- aspenmayer 2y ago
  I like your ideas here, and for some reason your comments remind me of the vision of Google Wave, which was much hyped but suffered in my opinion from its lack of usage. It also had a weird interaction model which wasn’t quite public or private, sort of like the issues Google+ had with Circles. I’m reminded of the poor UI/UX and design/ergonomics of playing Nintendo games online with Friend Codes.
  - danjl 2y ago
    I remember the hype around Google Wave, but I never personally had the opportunity to try it out. I recall seeing some screenshots that looked a bit like Google groups but with more icons. I did use Google Circles and Google+. Sounds like a fun bit of weekend research.
    - aspenmayer 2y ago
      I think parts of Wave were incorporated into Google+, now discontinued (running theme with Google products unfortunately), as well as incorporated in some collaboration/feedback/commenting features of Google Docs, iirc. Please reply back if you find anything interesting about Wave, it was pretty interesting at the time.
keyserj 2y ago
> I would put visuals (images, videos, diagrams) at the center of that forum and overcome the biggest issue with visuals -- that they are often hard to make for many people. > Rather than responding to comments, you could organize comments around the associated component of the problem as it is described visually. > This might even help avoid defensive behavior since the problem is the focus rather than a particular person's comment. These comments echo my feelings exactly. I think that building a structure that represents the concepts being discussed is critical to improving how we discuss and improve our understanding of complex issues. I'm working on a tool[1] that hopes to make it easier for people to build and work with such a structure, though it's focused specifically in the context of solving problems, and it's still missing some important features for collaborative usage (comments are particularly relevant here, they're coming soon^TM). The core ideas[2] seem to align with your comments, though the tool further distinguishes auxiliary concepts (questions, facts, sources) from primary ones (problems, causes, effects, tradeoffs, solutions, etc). [1] https://ameliorate.app/ https://ameliorate.app/ [2] https://ameliorate.app/docs/getting-started/core-ideas https://ameliorate.app/docs/getting-started/core-ideas

by danjl 2y ago

noiv 2y ago

I think when a group wants to build something you’re right - images help, but when you want to make a group build something text is often enough.

danjl 2y ago

Heh, perhaps you could use the text comments to constantly update a visual description generated by AI? That way, nobody needs to make a drawing. Conversely, nobody has direct control over the visuals. I envision a UI where people type their comment into a text box, that comment is sent to the server which is constantly updating the "visuals that describe the idea". Each client updates their UI with the new visuals along with providing some way of attaching all the comments to the visual images/videos/diagrams. IOW, the AI-generated visuals are the center of the client UI, rather than just a scrolling tape of comments. Clients can then navigate the discussion by diving into different components of the discussion. Maybe there's even an AI-generated summary of some sort. Essentially, the AI is playing the role of a Designer drawing pictures in a side channel and a smart assistant who is constantly updating a summary abstract.

aspenmayer 2y ago
I like your ideas here, and for some reason your comments remind me of the vision of Google Wave, which was much hyped but suffered in my opinion from its lack of usage. It also had a weird interaction model which wasn’t quite public or private, sort of like the issues Google+ had with Circles. I’m reminded of the poor UI/UX and design/ergonomics of playing Nintendo games online with Friend Codes.
- danjl 2y ago
  I remember the hype around Google Wave, but I never personally had the opportunity to try it out. I recall seeing some screenshots that looked a bit like Google groups but with more icons. I did use Google Circles and Google+. Sounds like a fun bit of weekend research.
  - aspenmayer 2y ago
    I think parts of Wave were incorporated into Google+, now discontinued (running theme with Google products unfortunately), as well as incorporated in some collaboration/feedback/commenting features of Google Docs, iirc. Please reply back if you find anything interesting about Wave, it was pretty interesting at the time.

keyserj 2y ago

> I would put visuals (images, videos, diagrams) at the center of that forum and overcome the biggest issue with visuals -- that they are often hard to make for many people. > Rather than responding to comments, you could organize comments around the associated component of the problem as it is described visually. > This might even help avoid defensive behavior since the problem is the focus rather than a particular person's comment. These comments echo my feelings exactly. I think that building a structure that represents the concepts being discussed is critical to improving how we discuss and improve our understanding of complex issues. I'm working on a tool[1] that hopes to make it easier for people to build and work with such a structure, though it's focused specifically in the context of solving problems, and it's still missing some important features for collaborative usage (comments are particularly relevant here, they're coming soon^TM). The core ideas[2] seem to align with your comments, though the tool further distinguishes auxiliary concepts (questions, facts, sources) from primary ones (problems, causes, effects, tradeoffs, solutions, etc). [1] https://ameliorate.app/ https://ameliorate.app/ [2] https://ameliorate.app/docs/getting-started/core-ideas https://ameliorate.app/docs/getting-started/core-ideas