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GP said amoral not immoral. I think their intent is more along the lines of companies are not human, hence they are immune to discussions of morality. I tend t

GP said amoral not immoral. I think their intent is more along the lines of companies are not human, hence they are immune to discussions of morality. I tend to agree with that. Moralizing corporate entities will not bring us the outcomes we desire because humans are great at creating internal structures to diffuse accountability. Strongly enforced well-defined legislation _is_ the social contract, might as well throw our weight behind that instead of presuming companies will fall in line out of the goodness of their hearts.

ryandrake 2y ago
Yes, I deliberately used the word amoral. We need to stop anthropomorphizing companies (not just true for Oracle[1]). They aren't moral or immoral. They are simply unfeeling lawnmowers that chew up anything in their way and produce money. They neither like nor dislike you--they don't even think about you. They just robotically do whatever they can do to make money. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728
- dwaltrip 2y ago
  > They aren't moral or immoral. They are simply unfeeling lawnmowers that chew up anything in their way and produce money. They neither like nor dislike you--they don't even think about you. They just robotically do whatever they can do to make money. That's a useful model, but it isn't the whole story. It certainly often feels like that. However, the 10% of the time where the model doesn't hold really matters. Companies are made up of humans, and humans aren't just money-robots. Groups of humans don't automatically turn into unfeeling profit-maximizers either. The moments when humans at companies make decisions that aren't purely motivated by short-term profit are significant and can have a large positive impact. It would definitely be nice to see it happen more often and more effectively. (To anyone who caught me in the act, sorry for all of the edits :)
- holonsphere 2y ago
  I sometimes like to imagine a derelect business ai from the 50s running the whole show. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_cybernetics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_cybernetics
tremon 2y ago
Oh I know, that's exactly the part that I'm arguing against. Companies do not exist in a vacuum, the actions they choose to take directly affect the society they're a part of. Throwing your hands up in the air and saying "they're a company, why do you expect any better" is just burying yourself in apathy, and it plays right into these companies' hands -- $deity forbid voters might learn to grow a spine and vote against unbridled business interests!

ryandrake 2y ago

Yes, I deliberately used the word amoral. We need to stop anthropomorphizing companies (not just true for Oracle[1]). They aren't moral or immoral. They are simply unfeeling lawnmowers that chew up anything in their way and produce money. They neither like nor dislike you--they don't even think about you. They just robotically do whatever they can do to make money. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728

dwaltrip 2y ago
> They aren't moral or immoral. They are simply unfeeling lawnmowers that chew up anything in their way and produce money. They neither like nor dislike you--they don't even think about you. They just robotically do whatever they can do to make money. That's a useful model, but it isn't the whole story. It certainly often feels like that. However, the 10% of the time where the model doesn't hold really matters. Companies are made up of humans, and humans aren't just money-robots. Groups of humans don't automatically turn into unfeeling profit-maximizers either. The moments when humans at companies make decisions that aren't purely motivated by short-term profit are significant and can have a large positive impact. It would definitely be nice to see it happen more often and more effectively. (To anyone who caught me in the act, sorry for all of the edits :)
holonsphere 2y ago
I sometimes like to imagine a derelect business ai from the 50s running the whole show. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_cybernetics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_cybernetics

tremon 2y ago

Oh I know, that's exactly the part that I'm arguing against. Companies do not exist in a vacuum, the actions they choose to take directly affect the society they're a part of. Throwing your hands up in the air and saying "they're a company, why do you expect any better" is just burying yourself in apathy, and it plays right into these companies' hands -- $deity forbid voters might learn to grow a spine and vote against unbridled business interests!