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Aren’t virtually all outdoors wear made of plastics? As far as I know, cheap brands and also pricier ones like Arcteryx all use the same materials. But they wor

Aren’t virtually all outdoors wear made of plastics? As far as I know, cheap brands and also pricier ones like Arcteryx all use the same materials. But they work great in terms of shedding water so I am not sure what alternative there is. Maybe the best way is to use all natural clothing for base layers but have the outer layer be plastic?

_yb2s 3y ago
You can get all natural fiber outdoor gear. Ibex, smartwool, wooly, and others make good wool gear. Outer rain layers are more rare but a few companies like Filson make them. Good rain gear existed long before plastic was invented. Treated leather and waxed cotton are two ancient waterproof outer layer technologies that work excellent, and are heavier but also more physically durable than the modern stuff. I also feel “outer layers” are way overused. A good thick wool mid layer with natural lanolin waterproofing will work in any conditions except really strong rain, and is more comfortable and breathable. I have a vintage no longer made Ibex wool mid layer that is quite rain resistant due to very high lanolin content.
- blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
  My understanding is that waxed cotton isn’t nearly as waterproof as plastic wear, but more like very water resistant. I have no direct experience with it - just what I’ve seen others report.
  - _yb2s 3y ago
    It’s waterproof enough… people sailed and fished in offshore storms in the stuff for hundreds of years. Modern hard shells aren’t very waterproof in practice either because the membranes and DWR coatings aren’t very durable. The only truly waterproof rain gear I’ve seen is totally non breathable polyurethane or pvc rain gear, or an actual dry suit.
    - Maxion 3y ago
      > Modern hard shells aren’t very waterproof in practice either because the membranes and DWR coatings aren’t very durable. If the membrane gets blocked (ice, or soaked with water) they stop breathing and you get soaked from your own sweat. Less waterprof alternatives can often be drier in practice.
      - _yb2s 3y ago
        Exactly… I’ve found in goretex stuff that isn’t brand new, I get dangerously soaked from my own sweat, whereas I stay dry and comfortable in the rain with leather and lanolin wool gear. And “isn’t brand new” can mean just a few hours of actual use outdoors with lots of mud, brush, etc.
        jerlam 3y ago
        Being wet isn't that big of a deal, as you say people sweat and they don't die of exposure. The primary goal is to be warm. In the past, people spent all their time outdoors and fought wars without a trace of Gore-Tex or DWR. They wore wool underwear and cotton jackets. Now office workers think they need 3L Goretex for the scramble across the parking lot.
        secondcoming 3y ago
        Getting wet in the wilderness can be a huge deal, especially when you stop moving.
        _yb2s 3y ago
        I disagree- getting wet is a huge deal, and is why breathability is generally more important than absolute waterproofness, especially if you are doing hard physical work. People do die from exposure in the wilderness after getting soaked with sweat, and then stopping to rest. I just don't think gore-tex and DWR are the best solutions for staying warm and dry... there are lots of other options that are more durable and keep you drier in practice. Besides the non-synthetic stuff above, I also prefer Columbia Outdry, and polyurethane with large zippered vents over gore-tex/DWR. In the real world, the breathability of gore-tex just isn't enough to be useful, it's close to a plastic bag. But I agree that for your average urban person doing a quick walk in the rain from a parking lot- just getting the outside of a sweater damp is no big deal, and they probably don't even need to own an expensive rain shell.
  - davidw 3y ago
    I have a waxed cotton jacket and it's ok for getting around town, but it's heavy and bulky compared to a gore-tex jacket.
    - _yb2s 3y ago
      A lot of it comes down to what you are doing- for hard labor in harsh physical conditions: mud, gravel, heavy brush, etc. during things like military work, commercial fishing, hunting, and construction lightweight backpacking or climbing gear doesn't hold up at all, you need something much heavier duty, and therefore heavier. For hiking or climbing, especially intermittently as a hobby, and in conditions where you aren't making a lot of full body contact with sharp or abrasive surfaces, weight is a bigger consideration than durability. I got pretty tired of how expensive lightweight gear just doesn't hold up even for recreational outdoor use... for example you can buy thin nylon backpacking pants at REI for $150, that are pretty similar in design and materials to a $50 pair of 'tactical military/police style pants' but the REI ones will rip in half the first time they snag on a bush. The military pants are made from much much heavier material, and will last far longer in harsh conditions, at the expense of more weight.

_yb2s 3y ago

You can get all natural fiber outdoor gear. Ibex, smartwool, wooly, and others make good wool gear. Outer rain layers are more rare but a few companies like Filson make them. Good rain gear existed long before plastic was invented. Treated leather and waxed cotton are two ancient waterproof outer layer technologies that work excellent, and are heavier but also more physically durable than the modern stuff. I also feel “outer layers” are way overused. A good thick wool mid layer with natural lanolin waterproofing will work in any conditions except really strong rain, and is more comfortable and breathable. I have a vintage no longer made Ibex wool mid layer that is quite rain resistant due to very high lanolin content.

blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
My understanding is that waxed cotton isn’t nearly as waterproof as plastic wear, but more like very water resistant. I have no direct experience with it - just what I’ve seen others report.
- _yb2s 3y ago
  It’s waterproof enough… people sailed and fished in offshore storms in the stuff for hundreds of years. Modern hard shells aren’t very waterproof in practice either because the membranes and DWR coatings aren’t very durable. The only truly waterproof rain gear I’ve seen is totally non breathable polyurethane or pvc rain gear, or an actual dry suit.
  - Maxion 3y ago
    > Modern hard shells aren’t very waterproof in practice either because the membranes and DWR coatings aren’t very durable. If the membrane gets blocked (ice, or soaked with water) they stop breathing and you get soaked from your own sweat. Less waterprof alternatives can often be drier in practice.
    - _yb2s 3y ago
      Exactly… I’ve found in goretex stuff that isn’t brand new, I get dangerously soaked from my own sweat, whereas I stay dry and comfortable in the rain with leather and lanolin wool gear. And “isn’t brand new” can mean just a few hours of actual use outdoors with lots of mud, brush, etc.
      - jerlam 3y ago
        Being wet isn't that big of a deal, as you say people sweat and they don't die of exposure. The primary goal is to be warm. In the past, people spent all their time outdoors and fought wars without a trace of Gore-Tex or DWR. They wore wool underwear and cotton jackets. Now office workers think they need 3L Goretex for the scramble across the parking lot.
        secondcoming 3y ago
        Getting wet in the wilderness can be a huge deal, especially when you stop moving.
        _yb2s 3y ago
        I disagree- getting wet is a huge deal, and is why breathability is generally more important than absolute waterproofness, especially if you are doing hard physical work. People do die from exposure in the wilderness after getting soaked with sweat, and then stopping to rest. I just don't think gore-tex and DWR are the best solutions for staying warm and dry... there are lots of other options that are more durable and keep you drier in practice. Besides the non-synthetic stuff above, I also prefer Columbia Outdry, and polyurethane with large zippered vents over gore-tex/DWR. In the real world, the breathability of gore-tex just isn't enough to be useful, it's close to a plastic bag. But I agree that for your average urban person doing a quick walk in the rain from a parking lot- just getting the outside of a sweater damp is no big deal, and they probably don't even need to own an expensive rain shell.
- davidw 3y ago
  I have a waxed cotton jacket and it's ok for getting around town, but it's heavy and bulky compared to a gore-tex jacket.
  - _yb2s 3y ago
    A lot of it comes down to what you are doing- for hard labor in harsh physical conditions: mud, gravel, heavy brush, etc. during things like military work, commercial fishing, hunting, and construction lightweight backpacking or climbing gear doesn't hold up at all, you need something much heavier duty, and therefore heavier. For hiking or climbing, especially intermittently as a hobby, and in conditions where you aren't making a lot of full body contact with sharp or abrasive surfaces, weight is a bigger consideration than durability. I got pretty tired of how expensive lightweight gear just doesn't hold up even for recreational outdoor use... for example you can buy thin nylon backpacking pants at REI for $150, that are pretty similar in design and materials to a $50 pair of 'tactical military/police style pants' but the REI ones will rip in half the first time they snag on a bush. The military pants are made from much much heavier material, and will last far longer in harsh conditions, at the expense of more weight.