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Many distortions above; let's just pick one: They elected Hamas Hamas won a narrow plurality in the 2006 legislative elections. That government dissolved ent

Many distortions above; let's just pick one: They elected Hamas Hamas won a narrow plurality in the 2006 legislative elections. That government dissolved entirely in 2007 after a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah. So since 2007, Hamas has not been "elected". In any case it's main function since then has been as an instrument of Israeli policy. In Bibi's own words, just a few years ago: "Anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas." So if you are unhappy with Hamas still being around, you know who to direct your concerns at.

tptacek 2y ago
That is certainly not Hamas's main function. Netanyahu is obviously in some sense culpable for funneling resources to Hamas, but Hamas is, obviously, an independent actor; if it's an instrument of anyone's policy, it's Iran's --- though, since October 7, the aQB wing of Hamas appears to be completely on its own.
- racional 2y ago
  Of course it's an independent actor, but I'm talking about the bigger picture and the strategic rational behind its continued existence. The Leitmotif if you will.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    The IRGC was going to make sure Hamas continued to exist, to the extent it needed external support at all. Hamas isn't a creation of Israel; Israeli support is not the rationale for its continued existence.
    - racional 2y ago
      I don't agree, but more to the point I didn't say or even suggest this: Hamas is a creation of Israel So I think we can wrap up here.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        I'm not saying you did, I'm just emphatically pushing back on the idea that Netanyahu's support for Hamas is instrumental to its staying power or in some way its reason for existing. It's clear what Netanyahu's purpose for assisting it was --- to divide Palestine between Fatah and Hamas and prevent the emergence of a coherent Palestinian state. Similarly, the US had very particular goals in supporting Afghan Mujahideen, which turned out to be quite different than those groups actual reason to exist. As I'm sure you're aware, this notion that Hamas is (or was, before the IDF demolished it) a puppet for Netanyahu has a lot of currency in online spaces. I don't see you making that argument! But it's worth calling it out. It is fine --- maybe even... dare I say it... good? --- if we say things that we agree on aloud.
- YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
  Netanyahu funded Hamas because he had a cunning plan: ‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... What a guy, that Bibi. He's so cute and smart, you just want to pinch his cheek and ruffle his hair. He funded Hamas to encourage them to fight the PA so they would not work together to create a Palestinian state. What an amazingly bright plan! Sending millions to Hamas? I mean what could ever possibly go wrong?
  - tptacek 2y ago
    If it wasn't clear, both myself and 'racional are making the same point. We're disputing the long-term impact of that funding, not whether or why it took place.

tptacek 2y ago

That is certainly not Hamas's main function. Netanyahu is obviously in some sense culpable for funneling resources to Hamas, but Hamas is, obviously, an independent actor; if it's an instrument of anyone's policy, it's Iran's --- though, since October 7, the aQB wing of Hamas appears to be completely on its own.

racional 2y ago
Of course it's an independent actor, but I'm talking about the bigger picture and the strategic rational behind its continued existence. The Leitmotif if you will.
- tptacek 2y ago
  The IRGC was going to make sure Hamas continued to exist, to the extent it needed external support at all. Hamas isn't a creation of Israel; Israeli support is not the rationale for its continued existence.
  - racional 2y ago
    I don't agree, but more to the point I didn't say or even suggest this: Hamas is a creation of Israel So I think we can wrap up here.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      I'm not saying you did, I'm just emphatically pushing back on the idea that Netanyahu's support for Hamas is instrumental to its staying power or in some way its reason for existing. It's clear what Netanyahu's purpose for assisting it was --- to divide Palestine between Fatah and Hamas and prevent the emergence of a coherent Palestinian state. Similarly, the US had very particular goals in supporting Afghan Mujahideen, which turned out to be quite different than those groups actual reason to exist. As I'm sure you're aware, this notion that Hamas is (or was, before the IDF demolished it) a puppet for Netanyahu has a lot of currency in online spaces. I don't see you making that argument! But it's worth calling it out. It is fine --- maybe even... dare I say it... good? --- if we say things that we agree on aloud.
YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
Netanyahu funded Hamas because he had a cunning plan: ‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... What a guy, that Bibi. He's so cute and smart, you just want to pinch his cheek and ruffle his hair. He funded Hamas to encourage them to fight the PA so they would not work together to create a Palestinian state. What an amazingly bright plan! Sending millions to Hamas? I mean what could ever possibly go wrong?
- tptacek 2y ago
  If it wasn't clear, both myself and 'racional are making the same point. We're disputing the long-term impact of that funding, not whether or why it took place.