5 ms·

I found a 2023 followup from Patagonia: https://www.patagonia.com/stories/toward-an-end-to-microfiber-pollution/story-141340.html https://www.patagonia.com/sto

by jerlam 2y ago

I found a 2023 followup from Patagonia: https://www.patagonia.com/stories/toward-an-end-to-microfiber-pollution/story-141340.html https://www.patagonia.com/stories/toward-an-end-to-microfibe... They still make fleece clothes, but they recommend washing less and have funded or sell filters to capture the microfibers.

nextos 2y ago
There are several German brands selling fleece jackets made of boiled wool. They are quite nice to be honest, and the price is not very different from decent synthetics. Also boiled wool is not tricky to wash. Even regular wool is not hard to wash. If you have a washing machine with a wool program and you use soap specific for wool, things are straightforward. We should favor natural fabrics. Synthetics are polluting during manufacturing and wear, plus they are hard to recycle. Externalities that turn into future debt.
- germinalphrase 2y ago
  Are they comparable in weight? My experience is that wool tends to be quite a bit heavier (though I am thinking of felt rarer than ‘fleece’)
  - davidw 2y ago
    And it gets even heavier when wet.
- sveme 2y ago
  Can you give some brand names? Really interested in this.
  - eatonphil 2y ago
    Here, perhaps. (Just from a quick Google search.) I'm curious too. https://www.littlespruceorganics.com/disana-organic-boiled-wool-mens-jacket/ https://www.littlespruceorganics.com/disana-organic-boiled-w...
  - jwjohnson314 2y ago
    66north from Iceland has some excellent wool fleeces.
- secondcoming 2y ago
  The annoying part of about wool is remembering to use the wool-specific washing mode and the wool-specific detergent. And one you've done that you have to reshape it when drying, which invariably must be done flat.
  - Maxion 2y ago
    You don't really need a wool specific detergent, you can just switch completely to a detergent that doesn't have enzymes, specifically protease that's the main problem for wool.
    - nextos 2y ago
      Wool-specific detergents usually have lanolin or other equivalent lipids added into the mix. These are really helpful to maintain wool properties.
  - jijijijij 2y ago
    This really depends on the type, quality and post processing of the wool. Also a small addition of synthetic fibers can drastically improve performance. I got merino base layer clothing with non of the downsides you mentioned, while maintaining the positives. I also got a thick 100% wool pullover, which was intensely post-processed, to the point of losing some wool qualities, but you can wash it at 60°C without any problem.
- sweetheart 2y ago
  There has got to be an option for a fleece-like material that doesn't involve significant pollution or significant animal suffering. At some point, fleece has just gotta be phased out if we can't produce it without enormous downsides.
  - ruined 2y ago
    livestock are not killed to collect wool. hardline vegans may not accept it, but it's certainly not comparable to leather or fur.
    - Maxion 2y ago
      Livestock are also necessary for regenerative farms that do not require outside sources of fertilizer. Hardline veganism requires petrochemical fertilizer.
    - djhn 2y ago
      If I understand correctly, cow hides are largely a by-product of beef production, and reducing leather use would not have an effect on animal suffering. Apple stopped using leather and was criticised for environmental damage at least in the short-to-medium term (underutilisation of existing materials, new demand for plastics and synthetics).
  - hedora 2y ago
    Wool farming is pretty humane. The sheep generally live outside ib large pastures and are sheared once a year. I wonder if it’s possible to make fleece from hemp.
    - ruined 2y ago
      wool fiber is used because its protein nanostructure is impermeable to water. it is an effective insulator even when the fabric is wet. plant fibers can't replicate this. polymer fibers can replicate this because they are solid extrusions.
  - illwrks 2y ago
- jwells89 2y ago
  At least in the US, synthetics can be difficult to avoid. While 100% cotton/linen/wool/etc articles can be found, blends like ~70%/~30% or ~95%/~5% natural/synthetic are much more common. That’s for men’s stuff though. From my understanding the situation is much worse for women’s clothing, where form-fitting designs are preferred which makes stretchy synthetics ubiquitous.
- FredPret 2y ago
  Natural fabrics are nice until it gets cold. Then duck or goose down works well, but only when encased in waterproof plastic. You even get plastic “down” that doesn’t work as well but is more weatherproof. The only natural thing that might work in cold weather is maybe fur. When it’s -40, you will have to pry my plastic + feather jacket from my frozen hands
  - mtalantikite 2y ago
    Wow where do you live that it gets to be -40! I live in NYC, where it gets cold sometimes, and my merino wool base layers from REI work great. I've never owned a heavy duty winter jacket in my years here.
    - FredPret 2y ago
      Alberta, Canada. You could layer up for mild cold, say down to -5C / 23 F. But after a certain point you need a large volume of warm dry feathers around you. The worst is probably actually freezing rain, which happens around 0C / 32 F. It’s not as cold, but the water and ice is more efficient than Alberta’s thin, usually dry mountain air at taking your precious heat away. You really want to be waterproof when that happens.
      - jwjohnson314 2y ago
        Unfortunately a rain/sleet/ice/wet snow mix is now more common than 'dry' snow in my part of the northeast US, necessitating waterproof gear if you want to be outside in the winter.
  - Maxion 2y ago
    When it's -40, you will have to pry my wool an down jacket from me. No way you're getting me to wear plastic in those temperatures.
    - FredPret 2y ago
      Interesting - I’ve never had a wool / down combo. Is the wool waterproof?
1053r 2y ago
Nothing is going to hit the price/warmness combo of plastic based fleeces, but I find the smelliness factor on synthetics to be worth paying extra for high quality natural fibers. Plastic clothing just ends up smelling gross and needs 2x-3x the washing! Some alternatives I've found. (I'm not associated with any of these, other than as a full price paying satisfied customer): 1) Silkliving.com is a New Zealand company that sells a 100% silk fleece. It's AMAZING to wear, and has a price to match. Pretty hard wearing, but I wouldn't wear it as my outer layer and then do construction or rock climbing or whatever. This fleece is as warm as plastic or wool, weighs less than plastic, is comfy over a wider range of temps, and just literally the best fleece money can buy for anything other than activities where it will get abraded. Sadly, only comes in black. I'm hoping if you all buy one, they will justify more colors because I want to buy more of these. 2) Minus33 is a New Hampshire, USA company (minus33.com) that makes a hard wearing 100% merino wool fleece. Their "expedition" weight is heavy, but WARM. I have two of these. 3) Arms of Andes (armsofandes.com) make Alpaca wool clothing. Alpaca fiber is hollow and smaller than merino wool, so it will be lighter (or the same weight but warmer) and slightly softer than merino. It's not as soft or light as silk though, and you might not notice the difference, whereas you will DEFINITELY notice silk vs. merino. They don't have a full zip hoodie, which is unfortunate, but they do offer non-toxic plant based dyes, which is nice! Remember, you are breathing that fiber in and swallowing it, so while it's an upgrade to go from plastic to natural fibers, it's also an upgrade to move away from to old school nasty heavy metal based dyes.
- deeel 2y ago
  I have a few items from Arms of Andes that are really great. Highly recommend. I ran into a similar situation as you after wearing synthetic clothing at the gym. It led me to create unwraplife.co as a database for plastic free clothing (no kickbacks here or anything shady, just a database).
- ravenstine 2y ago
  > Plastic clothing just ends up smelling gross and needs 2x-3x the washing! Yeah, I got some plastic based tee shirts that supposedly are composed in part from recycled bottles, which is cool, but they soak up armpit stank way more easily than shirts of other fabrics. Spray N' Wash works really well for that, though.
godelski 2y ago
> they recommend washing less I think it makes sense that Patagonia sells them still. They still do sell high performance gear and I think that should exist. But I think the bigger issue is that normal people are often buying high performance gear and treating them like normal clothing. I know people that will put their shells (outer layer) into the washing machine after a hike. Not only does it put microfibers and other chemicals into the water, but it ruins your shell. We got madlads washing their Gore-Tex rain jackets once or several times a week! You should only be washing them when they start wetting (water collects) or smell. Same is true for most water proof jackets.
- davidw 2y ago
  That sounds about right. I wouldn't give up my synthetic stuff for, say, bike riding. It's light, dries quickly, insulates even when it's a bit wet, stands up to repeated washings, fits well and is just good at the job it's supposed to do. Same thing for more intense hiking or xc skiing. But for a nice mid layer for day to day use in the winter, I'd love to ditch the synthetics.

by jerlam 2y ago

nextos 2y ago

There are several German brands selling fleece jackets made of boiled wool. They are quite nice to be honest, and the price is not very different from decent synthetics. Also boiled wool is not tricky to wash. Even regular wool is not hard to wash. If you have a washing machine with a wool program and you use soap specific for wool, things are straightforward. We should favor natural fabrics. Synthetics are polluting during manufacturing and wear, plus they are hard to recycle. Externalities that turn into future debt.

germinalphrase 2y ago
Are they comparable in weight? My experience is that wool tends to be quite a bit heavier (though I am thinking of felt rarer than ‘fleece’)
- davidw 2y ago
  And it gets even heavier when wet.
sveme 2y ago
Can you give some brand names? Really interested in this.
- eatonphil 2y ago
  Here, perhaps. (Just from a quick Google search.) I'm curious too. https://www.littlespruceorganics.com/disana-organic-boiled-wool-mens-jacket/ https://www.littlespruceorganics.com/disana-organic-boiled-w...
- jwjohnson314 2y ago
  66north from Iceland has some excellent wool fleeces.
secondcoming 2y ago
The annoying part of about wool is remembering to use the wool-specific washing mode and the wool-specific detergent. And one you've done that you have to reshape it when drying, which invariably must be done flat.
- Maxion 2y ago
  You don't really need a wool specific detergent, you can just switch completely to a detergent that doesn't have enzymes, specifically protease that's the main problem for wool.
  - nextos 2y ago
    Wool-specific detergents usually have lanolin or other equivalent lipids added into the mix. These are really helpful to maintain wool properties.
- jijijijij 2y ago
  This really depends on the type, quality and post processing of the wool. Also a small addition of synthetic fibers can drastically improve performance. I got merino base layer clothing with non of the downsides you mentioned, while maintaining the positives. I also got a thick 100% wool pullover, which was intensely post-processed, to the point of losing some wool qualities, but you can wash it at 60°C without any problem.
sweetheart 2y ago
There has got to be an option for a fleece-like material that doesn't involve significant pollution or significant animal suffering. At some point, fleece has just gotta be phased out if we can't produce it without enormous downsides.
- ruined 2y ago
  livestock are not killed to collect wool. hardline vegans may not accept it, but it's certainly not comparable to leather or fur.
  - Maxion 2y ago
    Livestock are also necessary for regenerative farms that do not require outside sources of fertilizer. Hardline veganism requires petrochemical fertilizer.
  - djhn 2y ago
    If I understand correctly, cow hides are largely a by-product of beef production, and reducing leather use would not have an effect on animal suffering. Apple stopped using leather and was criticised for environmental damage at least in the short-to-medium term (underutilisation of existing materials, new demand for plastics and synthetics).
- hedora 2y ago
  Wool farming is pretty humane. The sheep generally live outside ib large pastures and are sheared once a year. I wonder if it’s possible to make fleece from hemp.
  - ruined 2y ago
    wool fiber is used because its protein nanostructure is impermeable to water. it is an effective insulator even when the fabric is wet. plant fibers can't replicate this. polymer fibers can replicate this because they are solid extrusions.
- illwrks 2y ago
jwells89 2y ago
At least in the US, synthetics can be difficult to avoid. While 100% cotton/linen/wool/etc articles can be found, blends like ~70%/~30% or ~95%/~5% natural/synthetic are much more common. That’s for men’s stuff though. From my understanding the situation is much worse for women’s clothing, where form-fitting designs are preferred which makes stretchy synthetics ubiquitous.
FredPret 2y ago
Natural fabrics are nice until it gets cold. Then duck or goose down works well, but only when encased in waterproof plastic. You even get plastic “down” that doesn’t work as well but is more weatherproof. The only natural thing that might work in cold weather is maybe fur. When it’s -40, you will have to pry my plastic + feather jacket from my frozen hands
- mtalantikite 2y ago
  Wow where do you live that it gets to be -40! I live in NYC, where it gets cold sometimes, and my merino wool base layers from REI work great. I've never owned a heavy duty winter jacket in my years here.
  - FredPret 2y ago
    Alberta, Canada. You could layer up for mild cold, say down to -5C / 23 F. But after a certain point you need a large volume of warm dry feathers around you. The worst is probably actually freezing rain, which happens around 0C / 32 F. It’s not as cold, but the water and ice is more efficient than Alberta’s thin, usually dry mountain air at taking your precious heat away. You really want to be waterproof when that happens.
    - jwjohnson314 2y ago
      Unfortunately a rain/sleet/ice/wet snow mix is now more common than 'dry' snow in my part of the northeast US, necessitating waterproof gear if you want to be outside in the winter.
- Maxion 2y ago
  When it's -40, you will have to pry my wool an down jacket from me. No way you're getting me to wear plastic in those temperatures.
  - FredPret 2y ago
    Interesting - I’ve never had a wool / down combo. Is the wool waterproof?

1053r 2y ago

Nothing is going to hit the price/warmness combo of plastic based fleeces, but I find the smelliness factor on synthetics to be worth paying extra for high quality natural fibers. Plastic clothing just ends up smelling gross and needs 2x-3x the washing! Some alternatives I've found. (I'm not associated with any of these, other than as a full price paying satisfied customer): 1) Silkliving.com is a New Zealand company that sells a 100% silk fleece. It's AMAZING to wear, and has a price to match. Pretty hard wearing, but I wouldn't wear it as my outer layer and then do construction or rock climbing or whatever. This fleece is as warm as plastic or wool, weighs less than plastic, is comfy over a wider range of temps, and just literally the best fleece money can buy for anything other than activities where it will get abraded. Sadly, only comes in black. I'm hoping if you all buy one, they will justify more colors because I want to buy more of these. 2) Minus33 is a New Hampshire, USA company (minus33.com) that makes a hard wearing 100% merino wool fleece. Their "expedition" weight is heavy, but WARM. I have two of these. 3) Arms of Andes (armsofandes.com) make Alpaca wool clothing. Alpaca fiber is hollow and smaller than merino wool, so it will be lighter (or the same weight but warmer) and slightly softer than merino. It's not as soft or light as silk though, and you might not notice the difference, whereas you will DEFINITELY notice silk vs. merino. They don't have a full zip hoodie, which is unfortunate, but they do offer non-toxic plant based dyes, which is nice! Remember, you are breathing that fiber in and swallowing it, so while it's an upgrade to go from plastic to natural fibers, it's also an upgrade to move away from to old school nasty heavy metal based dyes.

deeel 2y ago
I have a few items from Arms of Andes that are really great. Highly recommend. I ran into a similar situation as you after wearing synthetic clothing at the gym. It led me to create unwraplife.co as a database for plastic free clothing (no kickbacks here or anything shady, just a database).
ravenstine 2y ago
> Plastic clothing just ends up smelling gross and needs 2x-3x the washing! Yeah, I got some plastic based tee shirts that supposedly are composed in part from recycled bottles, which is cool, but they soak up armpit stank way more easily than shirts of other fabrics. Spray N' Wash works really well for that, though.

godelski 2y ago

> they recommend washing less I think it makes sense that Patagonia sells them still. They still do sell high performance gear and I think that should exist. But I think the bigger issue is that normal people are often buying high performance gear and treating them like normal clothing. I know people that will put their shells (outer layer) into the washing machine after a hike. Not only does it put microfibers and other chemicals into the water, but it ruins your shell. We got madlads washing their Gore-Tex rain jackets once or several times a week! You should only be washing them when they start wetting (water collects) or smell. Same is true for most water proof jackets.

davidw 2y ago
That sounds about right. I wouldn't give up my synthetic stuff for, say, bike riding. It's light, dries quickly, insulates even when it's a bit wet, stands up to repeated washings, fits well and is just good at the job it's supposed to do. Same thing for more intense hiking or xc skiing. But for a nice mid layer for day to day use in the winter, I'd love to ditch the synthetics.