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> This is how the British state forces were able to use chemical weapons against the civilian population in Northern Ireland. I'm guessing these Catholics from

> This is how the British state forces were able to use chemical weapons against the civilian population in Northern Ireland. I'm guessing these Catholics from Northern Ireland were British citizens, right? This is something between separatism and civil war (although much closer to the former than the latter). A better analogy would be if the Republic of Ireland settled its citizens there en masse and provided them with weapons, similarly to what Egypt did when they controlled Gaza. A significant portion of Gaza's population today is descended from Egypt, they even speak with the Egyptian accent. And majority of the advanced weapons were smuggled via Egypt.

AlecSchueler 2y ago
I wasn't making an analogy, just pointing out another time when the definition of what was and wasn't a war had real world consequences for people on the ground. But I would say two things: First, not only Catholics were targeted during the Troubles. If tear gas is used to dispel a riot then it not only those involved on both sides but also anyone down wind from it. My mother lost her eyesight from tear gas related injuries because she had to walk past a flash point daily on her return from work. Secondly, while citizens of Northern Ireland are British by birth they were also entitled by birth to Irish citizenship after 1956.
- nivertech 2y ago
  > a war had real world consequences for people on the ground no need to point obvious things > not only Catholics were targeted In case everyone were targets, and not just separatists - then it's closer to civil war. It only shows how cruel Brittish were (or still are), and all the double standards with regards to Israel. > while citizens of Northern Ireland are British by birth they were also entitled by birth to Irish citizenship after 1956. Granting citizenship to people in breakaway separatists regions is the strategy employed by Putin. Russia first grant them citizenship, and then uses this as a pretext for military invasion in order to protect their newly acquired "citizens". Obviosly, Republic of Ireland doesn't employ this tactic, but granting citizenship to foreign people in confict areas is still problematic.
  - AlecSchueler 2y ago
    I want to add something to the previous response. > A better analogy would be if the Republic of Ireland settled its citizens there en masse and provided them with weapons, This did actually happen, but the other way around. The British settled citizens en masse in Ireland and provided them with weapons. This was called the Ulster Plantation. Even today many people in the North of Ireland speak with a dialect derived from the Scots language. Interestingly, Ronald Storrs, the first British military governor in Jerusalem, was recorded to have said that the Balfour Declaration’s purpose was to form a “little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.” [0] > Obviosly, Republic of Ireland doesn't employ this tactic No, and I think the comparison is a little unfair. It's true that these things can be abused tactically but it's not always the case. 0: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/winston-churchill-sent-the-black-and-tans-to-palestine-1.3089140 https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/winston-churchill-s...
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      > Interestingly, Ronald Storrs, the first British military governor in Jerusalem, was recorded to have said that the Balfour Declaration’s purpose was to form a “little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.” And to further this, historical and current Israeli restrictions on West Bank Palestinians and authorization and promotion of Israeli settlers seem like exactly the playbook one would run for crypto-annexation.
    - nivertech 2y ago
      I'm familiar with Anglo-Saxon and Norsemen colonization of Celtic people in Britain and Ireland. The latter is referred as a series of "Plantations"[1, 2]. Interestingly, while in some western/highland parts of Britain, Celts kept their language, but adopted Anglicanism as a religion, in most of the Ireland they kept their Catholic religion, but adopted English language, and only in some western parts of Ireland kept both. Anyway, if we go back to medieval times, then we can also talk about Arab and Ottoman colonization of Israel. --- [1]. Israel condemns London's Ulster plantation project after private colonisation contract was awarded by the Queen https://postimg.cc/xJ1XpHx7 https://postimg.cc/xJ1XpHx7 [2]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland
- hnbad 2y ago
  I remember when during the 2020 civil rights protests in the US people were talking about the Geneva convention and calling what the police did "in violation" of it, especially wrt chemical warfare, only to be surprised to find out it doesn't apply outside formal wars. I think if we want to make comparisons, an important difference is that Gaza has been existing in a limbo where Israel insists it's a sovereign territory because Israel withdrew from it but also insists it's part of Israel because they want to control its borders and what goes in and comes out of it. Also, in addition to everything that happens in Gaza, Palestinian Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank have also been targeted by Israel despite Hamas being largely confined to Gaza.

AlecSchueler 2y ago

I wasn't making an analogy, just pointing out another time when the definition of what was and wasn't a war had real world consequences for people on the ground. But I would say two things: First, not only Catholics were targeted during the Troubles. If tear gas is used to dispel a riot then it not only those involved on both sides but also anyone down wind from it. My mother lost her eyesight from tear gas related injuries because she had to walk past a flash point daily on her return from work. Secondly, while citizens of Northern Ireland are British by birth they were also entitled by birth to Irish citizenship after 1956.

nivertech 2y ago
> a war had real world consequences for people on the ground no need to point obvious things > not only Catholics were targeted In case everyone were targets, and not just separatists - then it's closer to civil war. It only shows how cruel Brittish were (or still are), and all the double standards with regards to Israel. > while citizens of Northern Ireland are British by birth they were also entitled by birth to Irish citizenship after 1956. Granting citizenship to people in breakaway separatists regions is the strategy employed by Putin. Russia first grant them citizenship, and then uses this as a pretext for military invasion in order to protect their newly acquired "citizens". Obviosly, Republic of Ireland doesn't employ this tactic, but granting citizenship to foreign people in confict areas is still problematic.
- AlecSchueler 2y ago
  I want to add something to the previous response. > A better analogy would be if the Republic of Ireland settled its citizens there en masse and provided them with weapons, This did actually happen, but the other way around. The British settled citizens en masse in Ireland and provided them with weapons. This was called the Ulster Plantation. Even today many people in the North of Ireland speak with a dialect derived from the Scots language. Interestingly, Ronald Storrs, the first British military governor in Jerusalem, was recorded to have said that the Balfour Declaration’s purpose was to form a “little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.” [0] > Obviosly, Republic of Ireland doesn't employ this tactic No, and I think the comparison is a little unfair. It's true that these things can be abused tactically but it's not always the case. 0: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/winston-churchill-sent-the-black-and-tans-to-palestine-1.3089140 https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/winston-churchill-s...
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    > Interestingly, Ronald Storrs, the first British military governor in Jerusalem, was recorded to have said that the Balfour Declaration’s purpose was to form a “little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.” And to further this, historical and current Israeli restrictions on West Bank Palestinians and authorization and promotion of Israeli settlers seem like exactly the playbook one would run for crypto-annexation.
  - nivertech 2y ago
    I'm familiar with Anglo-Saxon and Norsemen colonization of Celtic people in Britain and Ireland. The latter is referred as a series of "Plantations"[1, 2]. Interestingly, while in some western/highland parts of Britain, Celts kept their language, but adopted Anglicanism as a religion, in most of the Ireland they kept their Catholic religion, but adopted English language, and only in some western parts of Ireland kept both. Anyway, if we go back to medieval times, then we can also talk about Arab and Ottoman colonization of Israel. --- [1]. Israel condemns London's Ulster plantation project after private colonisation contract was awarded by the Queen https://postimg.cc/xJ1XpHx7 https://postimg.cc/xJ1XpHx7 [2]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland
hnbad 2y ago
I remember when during the 2020 civil rights protests in the US people were talking about the Geneva convention and calling what the police did "in violation" of it, especially wrt chemical warfare, only to be surprised to find out it doesn't apply outside formal wars. I think if we want to make comparisons, an important difference is that Gaza has been existing in a limbo where Israel insists it's a sovereign territory because Israel withdrew from it but also insists it's part of Israel because they want to control its borders and what goes in and comes out of it. Also, in addition to everything that happens in Gaza, Palestinian Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank have also been targeted by Israel despite Hamas being largely confined to Gaza.