8 ms·

This type of conflation is extremely dangerous. Criticism of the actions of the government of Israel is not the same thing as anti-semitism (a real and very bad

by pdinny 2y ago

This type of conflation is extremely dangerous. Criticism of the actions of the government of Israel is not the same thing as anti-semitism (a real and very bad thing). To make this claim essentially gives the government of Israel the go ahead to do absolutely anything without any possibility of criticism, because that criticism is never engaged with on the basis of its content but dismissed as anti-semitism.

Clubber 2y ago
>Criticism of the actions of the government of Israel is not the same thing as anti-semitism Unfortunately, it seems the protesters themselves often don't make the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism.
- AlecSchueler 2y ago
  I've seen thousands upon thousands of people protesting with my own eyes but never caught onto anything anti semitic. In fact I often see Jewish groups attending as well. I'm sure there often are people espousing vile views, that's a statistical inevitability almost, but it's clearly far from the norm.
  - Clubber 2y ago
    I'm just going on what the news says, and you know how the news likes to misrepresent stuff for clicks, but here's a few articles on the topic. https://abcnews.go.com/US/student-protesters-denounce-antisemitism-amid-criticism-pro-palestinian/story?id=109643275 https://abcnews.go.com/US/student-protesters-denounce-antise... https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/israel-hamas-war-protests-boston-jewish-students/ https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/israel-hamas-war-protest... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/03/college-gaza-protests-antisemitism https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/03/coll...
    - AlecSchueler 2y ago
      Yes, I know it well. I remember a very striking moment during some protests in London. The GB news was presenting it as having turned violent, with close ups of protesters clashing against the police. At the same time many individuals who were at the events themselves were able to broadcast on social media showing thousands of people peacefully walking together in a very positive atmosphere totally unaware that a small alteration had taken place elsewhere on the fringe of the event.
- pdinny 2y ago
  This is, by definition ("the protesters" used to generalise to all protesters), a gross generalisation. Based on what evidence? All the protests I have been to people have taken great pains to make that distinction. Comments like the above merely reinforce what I'm saying: the basis of criticism is never engaged with in terms of its own merits or content but is dismissed using ad hominem.
  - Clubber 2y ago
    I like how you cut my quote in half to misrepresent what I said. Well done.
    - pdinny 2y ago
      I do sincerely apologise for omitting the word "often". My point remains that generalisations should not be made based on the views of a minority. I have noticed that US media in particular presents a very one-sided accounting of protests. Axios, for examples, implies that Pro-Palestinian protests at colleges are a form of anti-semitism. Again, I apologise. That was in error, not malice.
      - Clubber 2y ago
        Thanks for that. The same thing is happening to this protest as what happened in many other protests in the US. The news is finding outliers and representing it as the norm. January 6th, the majority of those people weren't trying to overthrow the government, but all the protesters were branded as doing just that, and many got pretty harsh sentences for it. BLM protests were similar with the fires and the riots. The vast majority of BLM protesters were non-violent but they were all branded as rioters and fire starters. The media is now running that play against the pro-Gaza protests and trying to paint them all as antisemitic by pointing out some antisemitic things some people in the protests said. It's the standard playbook that happens again and again and again. It's almost as if the large media companies work for the status quo and feel any protests is a threat to that; which it is.
- Adverblessly 2y ago
  You appear to have fallen victim to a similar attempt at conflation, Zionism is a movement to fulfill the right for Jewish self-determination in their native land of thousands of years. Being antizionism is antisemitism because it negates the right to self-determination of the Jewish people. I realize though that what you actually means is anti-Israel, or if we are being more specific, I assume anti-Israeli-far-right or anti-Israeli-right. E.g. if you are for a two-state solution you are in agreement with the Israeli center and left (mostly, but that's just going into too many details).
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    > Zionism is a movement to fulfill the right for Jewish self-determination in their native land of thousands of years. This is the definition that makes Zionism troubling. Why not just disenfranchise and/or murder any non-Jewish person within the borders of the Jewish people's native land?
    - Adverblessly 2y ago
      Why not just disenfranchise and/or murder any non-French person within the borders of the French people's native land?
      - meiraleal 2y ago
        What's meant is that nobody would be called antisemitic for being against them if not for the fairy tale definition of a promised land.
        Adverblessly 2y ago
        Not sure what you mean by a fairy tale definition of a promised land, we are talking about actual land that they've actually lived in for thousands of years (though naturally not all of it continuously, after the Roman exile not that many Jews were left. Though if you accept that as removing their right to live there then surely you'll have no problem with Israel doing the same to the Palestinians).
- dudeinjapan 2y ago
  I think it's ok so long as we keep the protests at Beer Hall Putsch levels and don't go full Reichstag fire.
Aunche 2y ago
Germany isn't banning criticisms against Israel. They're banning antisemitic symbolism (whatever that means) that gets used in the protests. They have been like that for a long time with Nazi symbolism that isn't explicitly antisemitic.
- patrickjd 2y ago
  The general dynamic remains: protests against specific actions of Israel are dismissed as anti-semitic by definition. Banning Nazi symbolism is a good thing. Trying to equate neo-Nazis to anti-war protesters is disingenuous.
  - Aunche 2y ago
    Far-right conservatives in Germany have claimed to be persecuted in this way for a long time, claiming that they aren't antisemitic. My point is that it's nothing new.
    - AlecSchueler 2y ago
      That can be true but it doesn't logically follow that the people being shut down today are from the same group or are employing the same rhetorical strategies.
    - hnbad 2y ago
      Far-right conservatives in Germany claim to be "not antisemtic" by using dogwhistles (similar to the US, e.g. "elites" - the Nazis literally used "international bankers"). However they generally don't oppose Israel's right to self-defense and they are anti-Palestine because they don't like Muslims. In fact "actually the rise of antisemitism is caused by all the Muslims in our country" has been a major right-wing conservative talking point in Germany (and other parts of Europe) because it serves as a distraction. As there's no "risk" of increased Jewish immigration to Germany and Israel actually literally wants the opposite (i.e. for Jews to leave their home countries for Israel to increase the Jewish population in the Middle East, especially if they're the "right" kind of Jew), being pro-Israel is actually an effective strategy even if you turn around to blame all ills on a nebulous group of Jewish "elites" (and in Germany this is usually very nebulous as even far-right conservatives aren't dumb enough to be openly antisemetic). Anti-Zionism is not antisemitic and antisemitism is not anti-Zionist. Historically the German far-right was actually indifferent to Zionism because it provided a way to get rid of Jewish people domestically. They placed restrictions on emigration to prevent wealth drain (i.e. rich Jewish people taking their money/property with them when leaving Germany) but the only reason they shut down the Zionist emigration project was that they invaded Poland and suspended all legal migration because of the war. There is a line between being pro-Palestine/anti-Israel and being antisemitic. That line is when you insist on people being evicted from Palestine/Israel simply for being Jewish. Yes, some protests have seen people cross that line and some groups who have organized protests were firmly on the wrong end of that line. But the narrative that you can't be anti-Zionist without being antisemtic or that you can't be opposed to Israel's government's action without being opposed to the existence of Jewish people in Palestine/Israel is in itself antisemitic by deliberately conflating a state with individuals, many of whom don't even live in that state nor agree with it. There have been many Jewish opponents to Zionism and Zionism in Palestine especially since the inception of the modern Zionist movements. Until the state of Israel was created there was a strong divide between Jewish Zionists and Bundists, the latter arguing for a stateless nationhood. Bundists and other Jewish anti-Zionists still exist, they're just relegated to obscurity because Israel dominates the international conversation and most Jewish interest groups have aligned themselves with Israel for pragmatic reasons. Also, finally, Israel's current government as well as the illegal settlers in the West Bank (and prominent figures who fantasize about a "Greater Israel" including at least all of Palestine but potentially also parts of the surrounding countries) are in fact most accurately described as "far-right conservatives" as well.

by pdinny 2y ago

Clubber 2y ago

>Criticism of the actions of the government of Israel is not the same thing as anti-semitism Unfortunately, it seems the protesters themselves often don't make the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism.

AlecSchueler 2y ago
I've seen thousands upon thousands of people protesting with my own eyes but never caught onto anything anti semitic. In fact I often see Jewish groups attending as well. I'm sure there often are people espousing vile views, that's a statistical inevitability almost, but it's clearly far from the norm.
- Clubber 2y ago
  I'm just going on what the news says, and you know how the news likes to misrepresent stuff for clicks, but here's a few articles on the topic. https://abcnews.go.com/US/student-protesters-denounce-antisemitism-amid-criticism-pro-palestinian/story?id=109643275 https://abcnews.go.com/US/student-protesters-denounce-antise... https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/israel-hamas-war-protests-boston-jewish-students/ https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/israel-hamas-war-protest... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/03/college-gaza-protests-antisemitism https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/03/coll...
  - AlecSchueler 2y ago
    Yes, I know it well. I remember a very striking moment during some protests in London. The GB news was presenting it as having turned violent, with close ups of protesters clashing against the police. At the same time many individuals who were at the events themselves were able to broadcast on social media showing thousands of people peacefully walking together in a very positive atmosphere totally unaware that a small alteration had taken place elsewhere on the fringe of the event.
pdinny 2y ago
This is, by definition ("the protesters" used to generalise to all protesters), a gross generalisation. Based on what evidence? All the protests I have been to people have taken great pains to make that distinction. Comments like the above merely reinforce what I'm saying: the basis of criticism is never engaged with in terms of its own merits or content but is dismissed using ad hominem.
- Clubber 2y ago
  I like how you cut my quote in half to misrepresent what I said. Well done.
  - pdinny 2y ago
    I do sincerely apologise for omitting the word "often". My point remains that generalisations should not be made based on the views of a minority. I have noticed that US media in particular presents a very one-sided accounting of protests. Axios, for examples, implies that Pro-Palestinian protests at colleges are a form of anti-semitism. Again, I apologise. That was in error, not malice.
    - Clubber 2y ago
      Thanks for that. The same thing is happening to this protest as what happened in many other protests in the US. The news is finding outliers and representing it as the norm. January 6th, the majority of those people weren't trying to overthrow the government, but all the protesters were branded as doing just that, and many got pretty harsh sentences for it. BLM protests were similar with the fires and the riots. The vast majority of BLM protesters were non-violent but they were all branded as rioters and fire starters. The media is now running that play against the pro-Gaza protests and trying to paint them all as antisemitic by pointing out some antisemitic things some people in the protests said. It's the standard playbook that happens again and again and again. It's almost as if the large media companies work for the status quo and feel any protests is a threat to that; which it is.
Adverblessly 2y ago
You appear to have fallen victim to a similar attempt at conflation, Zionism is a movement to fulfill the right for Jewish self-determination in their native land of thousands of years. Being antizionism is antisemitism because it negates the right to self-determination of the Jewish people. I realize though that what you actually means is anti-Israel, or if we are being more specific, I assume anti-Israeli-far-right or anti-Israeli-right. E.g. if you are for a two-state solution you are in agreement with the Israeli center and left (mostly, but that's just going into too many details).
- ethbr1 2y ago
  > Zionism is a movement to fulfill the right for Jewish self-determination in their native land of thousands of years. This is the definition that makes Zionism troubling. Why not just disenfranchise and/or murder any non-Jewish person within the borders of the Jewish people's native land?
  - Adverblessly 2y ago
    Why not just disenfranchise and/or murder any non-French person within the borders of the French people's native land?
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      What's meant is that nobody would be called antisemitic for being against them if not for the fairy tale definition of a promised land.
      - Adverblessly 2y ago
        Not sure what you mean by a fairy tale definition of a promised land, we are talking about actual land that they've actually lived in for thousands of years (though naturally not all of it continuously, after the Roman exile not that many Jews were left. Though if you accept that as removing their right to live there then surely you'll have no problem with Israel doing the same to the Palestinians).
dudeinjapan 2y ago
I think it's ok so long as we keep the protests at Beer Hall Putsch levels and don't go full Reichstag fire.

Aunche 2y ago

Germany isn't banning criticisms against Israel. They're banning antisemitic symbolism (whatever that means) that gets used in the protests. They have been like that for a long time with Nazi symbolism that isn't explicitly antisemitic.

patrickjd 2y ago
The general dynamic remains: protests against specific actions of Israel are dismissed as anti-semitic by definition. Banning Nazi symbolism is a good thing. Trying to equate neo-Nazis to anti-war protesters is disingenuous.
- Aunche 2y ago
  Far-right conservatives in Germany have claimed to be persecuted in this way for a long time, claiming that they aren't antisemitic. My point is that it's nothing new.
  - AlecSchueler 2y ago
    That can be true but it doesn't logically follow that the people being shut down today are from the same group or are employing the same rhetorical strategies.
  - hnbad 2y ago
    Far-right conservatives in Germany claim to be "not antisemtic" by using dogwhistles (similar to the US, e.g. "elites" - the Nazis literally used "international bankers"). However they generally don't oppose Israel's right to self-defense and they are anti-Palestine because they don't like Muslims. In fact "actually the rise of antisemitism is caused by all the Muslims in our country" has been a major right-wing conservative talking point in Germany (and other parts of Europe) because it serves as a distraction. As there's no "risk" of increased Jewish immigration to Germany and Israel actually literally wants the opposite (i.e. for Jews to leave their home countries for Israel to increase the Jewish population in the Middle East, especially if they're the "right" kind of Jew), being pro-Israel is actually an effective strategy even if you turn around to blame all ills on a nebulous group of Jewish "elites" (and in Germany this is usually very nebulous as even far-right conservatives aren't dumb enough to be openly antisemetic). Anti-Zionism is not antisemitic and antisemitism is not anti-Zionist. Historically the German far-right was actually indifferent to Zionism because it provided a way to get rid of Jewish people domestically. They placed restrictions on emigration to prevent wealth drain (i.e. rich Jewish people taking their money/property with them when leaving Germany) but the only reason they shut down the Zionist emigration project was that they invaded Poland and suspended all legal migration because of the war. There is a line between being pro-Palestine/anti-Israel and being antisemitic. That line is when you insist on people being evicted from Palestine/Israel simply for being Jewish. Yes, some protests have seen people cross that line and some groups who have organized protests were firmly on the wrong end of that line. But the narrative that you can't be anti-Zionist without being antisemtic or that you can't be opposed to Israel's government's action without being opposed to the existence of Jewish people in Palestine/Israel is in itself antisemitic by deliberately conflating a state with individuals, many of whom don't even live in that state nor agree with it. There have been many Jewish opponents to Zionism and Zionism in Palestine especially since the inception of the modern Zionist movements. Until the state of Israel was created there was a strong divide between Jewish Zionists and Bundists, the latter arguing for a stateless nationhood. Bundists and other Jewish anti-Zionists still exist, they're just relegated to obscurity because Israel dominates the international conversation and most Jewish interest groups have aligned themselves with Israel for pragmatic reasons. Also, finally, Israel's current government as well as the illegal settlers in the West Bank (and prominent figures who fantasize about a "Greater Israel" including at least all of Palestine but potentially also parts of the surrounding countries) are in fact most accurately described as "far-right conservatives" as well.