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What about all the misleading news (i.e., positive spin) in the Western world's "free press" that lead to many believing that Ukraine had a chance for a counter

What about all the misleading news (i.e., positive spin) in the Western world's "free press" that lead to many believing that Ukraine had a chance for a counter offensive (against even basic military thinking and logic). Didn't that lead to unnecessary suffering and deaths during war time (vs say an alternative, beefing up defense lines)? That's just a random recent example. Another older one is the the media going nuts over "WMDs", leading to an unnecessary US invasion and millions of deaths. My point being is that even free press can spread bad ideas and narratives - in fact, it frequently does. And those ideas should be able to be challenged, at any time, by any source.

mrtksn 2y ago
what a starange statement about the counterattack, as if there was a definite knowledge about the future and the Western propaganda suppressed it. They attempted at taking back their own lands and they failed. The same people claiming to know the future also used to claim that Russia would not attack and later that Ukraine will fall in matter of days. Maybe just stop listening to fortune tellers.
- cpursley 2y ago
  Exactly, I prefer to listen to experts and the experts were saying it was a bad idea (esp without air power). It was news media and politicians (ie, not military experts) that cheered it on.
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    It's amazing how you believe that militaries and politicians operate without experts and there're experts on the social media/ tradmedia who came together analysed the situation, came to a definitive prediction about the outcome of a military operation but the western media surpassed those experts and as a result politicians and military engaged in a futile counterattack. Fascinating mental model on how the world works.
    - cpursley 2y ago
      That’s exactly what happened, yeah. And warfare/foreign policy is not the only issue they gaslight us on.
    - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
      You're being very disrespectful in this conversation. I was GP has provided links and references when they made their comment, but they are certainly correct. The way the conflict is covered in US media makes it seem like Ukraine is wily superhero making good progress against the bumbling Russians. This does not reflect the current reality or future prospects in the conflict.
      - mrtksn 2y ago
        Apologies if I sounded disrespectful, I’m just fascinated that people can conceptualize the world in this way.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Pretty sure the actual world leading experts on Ukraine’s situation are the ones making battlefield decisions in Ukraine. Like the other commenter said, what a fascinating model of the world you’ve built here.
    - cpursley 2y ago
      Holding a non-narrative driven view might be fascinating for some, I suppose.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        You are literally constructing a narrative that western news media makes the decisions on the Ukrainian battlefield.
        cpursley 2y ago
        Yes, it is a major contributing factor. PR wins help with public support for funding. This situation/topic is not the only situation they intentionally manipulate public option on.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        Lots of narrative here buddy
        cpursley 2y ago
        Lot of books, buddy. You might want to start with this one: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12617.Manufacturing_Consent https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12617.Manufacturing_Cons...
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        I'm pretty sure that "western news anchors produce an expected-to-fail counteroffensive in Ukraine" would even make Chomsky roll his eyes. Your explanation is not even internally coherent. A successful counteroffensive is a PR win. An unsuccessful one is a PR loss, obviously.
pastage 2y ago
I do not understand how supporting Ukraine can lead to more suffering, there is a long history of implerialism causing suffering so there is a rather large opposition against it in the west. What Russia does to Ukraine is pretty gruesome, it is not even considered a country in russian intellectual discourse that is a bad sign. When we talk about the press and politics these kind of cynical tones are not helpfull. The WMD issue was heavily discussed and debated. The same as Gaza is now, it is interesting what issues manage to be changed by public opinion and what that really is, this is not only an issue with the press. People and groups tend to think that their own opinions should matter, that is only true if you managed to get enough people to care about your opinions and even then you might need a referendum.
- cpursley 2y ago
  I’m not talking about supporting Ukraine vs not, but about wishful thinking propagated by media that led thousands of unfortunate Ukrainian souls into heavily mined traps. And that’s my point, media spread a narrative that was at odds with expert advice and basic military strategy (there’s mathematical equations about force required, etc for these types of operations that was ignored). That idea should have been able to been challenged without accusations of being in bed with Putin. We all saw the aftermath. Bad ideas, even from the good guys, can be deadly.
  - bazoom42 2y ago
    Are you saying Ukrainian military base their strategy on media propaganda rather than basic military strategy? Why would they do that?
    - cpursley 2y ago
      That's a good question that has a lot of people scratching their heads. My best guess is top Ukrainian leadership are staffed by a lot of former mass media people, including the president himself (well, until May 20th when his term ends).
      - 2y ago

mrtksn 2y ago

what a starange statement about the counterattack, as if there was a definite knowledge about the future and the Western propaganda suppressed it. They attempted at taking back their own lands and they failed. The same people claiming to know the future also used to claim that Russia would not attack and later that Ukraine will fall in matter of days. Maybe just stop listening to fortune tellers.

cpursley 2y ago
Exactly, I prefer to listen to experts and the experts were saying it was a bad idea (esp without air power). It was news media and politicians (ie, not military experts) that cheered it on.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  It's amazing how you believe that militaries and politicians operate without experts and there're experts on the social media/ tradmedia who came together analysed the situation, came to a definitive prediction about the outcome of a military operation but the western media surpassed those experts and as a result politicians and military engaged in a futile counterattack. Fascinating mental model on how the world works.
  - cpursley 2y ago
    That’s exactly what happened, yeah. And warfare/foreign policy is not the only issue they gaslight us on.
  - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
    You're being very disrespectful in this conversation. I was GP has provided links and references when they made their comment, but they are certainly correct. The way the conflict is covered in US media makes it seem like Ukraine is wily superhero making good progress against the bumbling Russians. This does not reflect the current reality or future prospects in the conflict.
    - mrtksn 2y ago
      Apologies if I sounded disrespectful, I’m just fascinated that people can conceptualize the world in this way.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Pretty sure the actual world leading experts on Ukraine’s situation are the ones making battlefield decisions in Ukraine. Like the other commenter said, what a fascinating model of the world you’ve built here.
  - cpursley 2y ago
    Holding a non-narrative driven view might be fascinating for some, I suppose.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      You are literally constructing a narrative that western news media makes the decisions on the Ukrainian battlefield.
      - cpursley 2y ago
        Yes, it is a major contributing factor. PR wins help with public support for funding. This situation/topic is not the only situation they intentionally manipulate public option on.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        Lots of narrative here buddy
        cpursley 2y ago
        Lot of books, buddy. You might want to start with this one: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12617.Manufacturing_Consent https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12617.Manufacturing_Cons...
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        I'm pretty sure that "western news anchors produce an expected-to-fail counteroffensive in Ukraine" would even make Chomsky roll his eyes. Your explanation is not even internally coherent. A successful counteroffensive is a PR win. An unsuccessful one is a PR loss, obviously.

pastage 2y ago

I do not understand how supporting Ukraine can lead to more suffering, there is a long history of implerialism causing suffering so there is a rather large opposition against it in the west. What Russia does to Ukraine is pretty gruesome, it is not even considered a country in russian intellectual discourse that is a bad sign. When we talk about the press and politics these kind of cynical tones are not helpfull. The WMD issue was heavily discussed and debated. The same as Gaza is now, it is interesting what issues manage to be changed by public opinion and what that really is, this is not only an issue with the press. People and groups tend to think that their own opinions should matter, that is only true if you managed to get enough people to care about your opinions and even then you might need a referendum.

cpursley 2y ago
I’m not talking about supporting Ukraine vs not, but about wishful thinking propagated by media that led thousands of unfortunate Ukrainian souls into heavily mined traps. And that’s my point, media spread a narrative that was at odds with expert advice and basic military strategy (there’s mathematical equations about force required, etc for these types of operations that was ignored). That idea should have been able to been challenged without accusations of being in bed with Putin. We all saw the aftermath. Bad ideas, even from the good guys, can be deadly.
- bazoom42 2y ago
  Are you saying Ukrainian military base their strategy on media propaganda rather than basic military strategy? Why would they do that?
  - cpursley 2y ago
    That's a good question that has a lot of people scratching their heads. My best guess is top Ukrainian leadership are staffed by a lot of former mass media people, including the president himself (well, until May 20th when his term ends).
    - 2y ago