5 ms·

One of them is 100 times more extensive. Ideal is to have none, but lets not pretend that magnitude and severity is not relevant.

by mda 2y ago

cies 2y ago
Relevant to the people living in it. Not relevant to the ideals set forth, which our moderns free democracies are based on. This is fundamental, so it's actually worse than when it happens in China.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Not really. Compromise and nuance have always been necessary features of democracies. This has also frequently been seized upon by autocratic apologists with this framing (“it’s actually worse here because of our idealism!”) and yet autocracies remain reliably worse off than democracies in practice.
  - guappa 2y ago
    Every country calls their enemy "undemocratic"
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      Stunningly, not all of them are correct. It’s actually not a sign of intelligence or honesty to be able to squint so hard that you see no meaningful differences between e.g. the US and Russia/Iran/China. It’s just called closing your eyes.
      - guappa 2y ago
        Shall we talk about what % of the population is imprisoned in all the countries you mentioned?
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        Happy to once you explain clearly how that number is relevant to whether a country is democratic or not. Or are you just trying to change the topic?
        mistermann 2y ago
        Did American citizens directly vote for the level of imprisonment in the country? The game is rigged: any political system that allows any voting at all can be "accurately" described as "being democratic", and this (especially when combined with non-stop supplemental propaganda) is more than adequate to satisfy the heuristic based thinking of most people (and to pull the wool over their eyes). Noteworthy: who sets educational curriculum (which is what enables people to think skilfully about such things) in schools in "democracies"? How likely does it seem that among thousands of people over decades, no one connected to the department of education noticed that the basic skills for practicing critical thinking are not contained within K-12 curriculum?
        cies 2y ago
        Democratic, rules based order, freedom: all words used to paint oneself in the good and others in the back. They barely have meaning in political discourse nowadays.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        Go to Qatar and strike up a conversation like the ones that are had millions of times per day in the US about how awful/incompetent/evil/illegitimate the government is. It's you who is degrading the meaning of these things. You can go experience the difference for yourself.
        mistermann 2y ago
        > Go to Qatar and strike up a conversation like the ones that are had millions of times per day in the US about how awful/incompetent/evil/illegitimate the government is. What is the point of this with respect to the comment it is replying to? Is it intended to be a disproof of some kind? And while we're at that (comparing Qatar to the US), should we also consider other metrics? Like, oh, I don't know...say Total Body Count on the International Stage? I'm fairly certain being alive is at least as important to most people as Freedom of Speech. > It's you who is degrading the meaning of these things. Appeals to the perfection of one's own cognition are getting a bit old. It's 2024 ffs. > You can go experience the difference for yourself. Realistically, most people are mostly stuck where they are, and I would rather not engage in illusory thinking about the quality of my country to make myself feel better. But of course, each to his own.
    - cies 2y ago
      I was in China, they called democracy "hopelessly inefficient, will not work for a large population like ours". What you describe is mostly western/NATO rhetoric, after which they can influence the election (which drives them to tears when it supposedly happens back home).

One of them is 100 times more extensive. Ideal is to have none, but lets not pretend that magnitude and severity is not relevant.

by mda 2y ago

One of them is 100 times more extensive. Ideal is to have none, but lets not pretend that magnitude and severity is not relevant.

cies 2y ago

Relevant to the people living in it. Not relevant to the ideals set forth, which our moderns free democracies are based on. This is fundamental, so it's actually worse than when it happens in China.

llamaimperative 2y ago
Not really. Compromise and nuance have always been necessary features of democracies. This has also frequently been seized upon by autocratic apologists with this framing (“it’s actually worse here because of our idealism!”) and yet autocracies remain reliably worse off than democracies in practice.
- guappa 2y ago
  Every country calls their enemy "undemocratic"
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Stunningly, not all of them are correct. It’s actually not a sign of intelligence or honesty to be able to squint so hard that you see no meaningful differences between e.g. the US and Russia/Iran/China. It’s just called closing your eyes.
    - guappa 2y ago
      Shall we talk about what % of the population is imprisoned in all the countries you mentioned?
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        Happy to once you explain clearly how that number is relevant to whether a country is democratic or not. Or are you just trying to change the topic?
        mistermann 2y ago
        Did American citizens directly vote for the level of imprisonment in the country? The game is rigged: any political system that allows any voting at all can be "accurately" described as "being democratic", and this (especially when combined with non-stop supplemental propaganda) is more than adequate to satisfy the heuristic based thinking of most people (and to pull the wool over their eyes). Noteworthy: who sets educational curriculum (which is what enables people to think skilfully about such things) in schools in "democracies"? How likely does it seem that among thousands of people over decades, no one connected to the department of education noticed that the basic skills for practicing critical thinking are not contained within K-12 curriculum?
        cies 2y ago
        Democratic, rules based order, freedom: all words used to paint oneself in the good and others in the back. They barely have meaning in political discourse nowadays.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        Go to Qatar and strike up a conversation like the ones that are had millions of times per day in the US about how awful/incompetent/evil/illegitimate the government is. It's you who is degrading the meaning of these things. You can go experience the difference for yourself.
        mistermann 2y ago
        > Go to Qatar and strike up a conversation like the ones that are had millions of times per day in the US about how awful/incompetent/evil/illegitimate the government is. What is the point of this with respect to the comment it is replying to? Is it intended to be a disproof of some kind? And while we're at that (comparing Qatar to the US), should we also consider other metrics? Like, oh, I don't know...say Total Body Count on the International Stage? I'm fairly certain being alive is at least as important to most people as Freedom of Speech. > It's you who is degrading the meaning of these things. Appeals to the perfection of one's own cognition are getting a bit old. It's 2024 ffs. > You can go experience the difference for yourself. Realistically, most people are mostly stuck where they are, and I would rather not engage in illusory thinking about the quality of my country to make myself feel better. But of course, each to his own.
  - cies 2y ago
    I was in China, they called democracy "hopelessly inefficient, will not work for a large population like ours". What you describe is mostly western/NATO rhetoric, after which they can influence the election (which drives them to tears when it supposedly happens back home).