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The US has killed over 400,000 Iraqis since invading Iraq. Do you think that qualifies as genocide?

klyrs 2y ago
Speaking as an American: yes. Bush and Obama are war criminals and I'd say that they belong in Gitmo but I'm more principled than that and we need to shut Gitmo down.
raverbashing 2y ago
It isn't The context of the convention needs to be understood in the general context and especially in the context of a war (though of course they don't "exist" only in that context). And wars are awful. (not saying what Israel is doing is correct or even adequate - but generalizing terms helps nobody)
pasabagi 2y ago
That's a built-in failing of the genocide definition: it requires intent, otherwise no doubt the US would have been on the hook as early as the Korean war. Sadly for the Israelis, they have a cabinet of the kind of people who just cannot help themselves from communicating intent.
- boffinAudio 2y ago
  Are you familiar with the fine words of Madeleine Albright and her cohorts in PNAC, who very clearly demonstrated the intent to massacre hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's, mostly children, and then proceeded to do so? Just because the US got away with genocide doesn't mean any other nation should. The American people should be jailing their own war criminals, and then go after those of Russia and Israel and the UK and Ukraine and so on. However, war crimes are good for (American) business. See also: the military support of the genocide of Yemen by a known fascist totalitarian-authoritarian dictatorship.
  - hardlianotion 2y ago
    I am not, and I have no idea what PNAC is. I think I am probably representative. Will you explain what you are talking about?
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      Some explanation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright#Sanctions_against_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright#Sanctions_a...
    - boffinAudio 2y ago
      PNAC = Project for a New American Century [0] Madeleine Albright should have been frog-marched into The Hague for justifying the US-sanctioned deaths of over 500,000 children. [1], [2] The extremely deceptive, duplicitous individuals in PNAC are the ones who lied and scammed the American public into funding the destruction of Iraq, and countless other sovereign states in the Middle East, in order to be able to refactor those states according to American interests. This is why the USA illegally occupies 1/3rd of Syria's sovereign territory (its oil fields) in order to deny the Syrian people the resources they need to rebuild their country. It is why Libya was destroyed, why Iraq was destroyed, why Afghanistan was left in utter ruin. Its why Yemen suffered a genocide widely ignored by the West. This is why the USA funds and supports ISIS as a "fifth column" (See also: Operation Gladio[3]) in the region, in order to fight wars without the approval of Congress. Note that Gladio is still in effect as official US military doctrine - under different names now, but the modern manifestations go all the way back to the original Gladio doctrine. It would be very important for you to understand who PNAC are and what their very clearly stated intentions are - these are the fascist oligarchs whose dogma allows the Joint Chiefs of Staff to get away with mass murder. Real, actual mass murder, not hyperbole, of cultures deemed culturally inferior by Americas oligarchic ruling class. Note that, even if Americans are not aware of these things, the rest of the world is, and is - I believe - a motivating force behind the rise of BRICS and the general anti-American sentiment that exists outside the Anglosphere bubble. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_C... [1] - https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-iraqi-kids-deaths-worth-it-resurfaces-1691193 https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-ira... [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47aaaFhGtMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47aaaFhGtMM [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
_djo_ 2y ago
Source? None of the organisations tracking Iraqi civilian deaths that have broken down figures by cause show that number caused by US forces directly. If you're including indirect causes too, such as a rise in sectarian violence, deprivation, and increased criminality then, yes, but that's a different statement.
cm2187 2y ago
You may confuse the deaths of the sunni-shia civil war with deaths under US fire. Saddam Hussein like Gaddafi would have died sooner or later. To me there is nothing that suggests that these civil wars wouldn't have happen sooner or later, like in Yugoslavia.
segasaturn 2y ago
Absolutely, positively, unequivocally, yes.

Speaking as an American: yes. Bush and Obama are war criminals and I'd say that they belong in Gitmo but I'm more principled than that and we need to shut Gitmo down.

raverbashing 2y ago

It isn't The context of the convention needs to be understood in the general context and especially in the context of a war (though of course they don't "exist" only in that context). And wars are awful. (not saying what Israel is doing is correct or even adequate - but generalizing terms helps nobody)

pasabagi 2y ago

That's a built-in failing of the genocide definition: it requires intent, otherwise no doubt the US would have been on the hook as early as the Korean war. Sadly for the Israelis, they have a cabinet of the kind of people who just cannot help themselves from communicating intent.

boffinAudio 2y ago
Are you familiar with the fine words of Madeleine Albright and her cohorts in PNAC, who very clearly demonstrated the intent to massacre hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's, mostly children, and then proceeded to do so? Just because the US got away with genocide doesn't mean any other nation should. The American people should be jailing their own war criminals, and then go after those of Russia and Israel and the UK and Ukraine and so on. However, war crimes are good for (American) business. See also: the military support of the genocide of Yemen by a known fascist totalitarian-authoritarian dictatorship.
- hardlianotion 2y ago
  I am not, and I have no idea what PNAC is. I think I am probably representative. Will you explain what you are talking about?
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    Some explanation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright#Sanctions_against_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright#Sanctions_a...
  - boffinAudio 2y ago
    PNAC = Project for a New American Century [0] Madeleine Albright should have been frog-marched into The Hague for justifying the US-sanctioned deaths of over 500,000 children. [1], [2] The extremely deceptive, duplicitous individuals in PNAC are the ones who lied and scammed the American public into funding the destruction of Iraq, and countless other sovereign states in the Middle East, in order to be able to refactor those states according to American interests. This is why the USA illegally occupies 1/3rd of Syria's sovereign territory (its oil fields) in order to deny the Syrian people the resources they need to rebuild their country. It is why Libya was destroyed, why Iraq was destroyed, why Afghanistan was left in utter ruin. Its why Yemen suffered a genocide widely ignored by the West. This is why the USA funds and supports ISIS as a "fifth column" (See also: Operation Gladio[3]) in the region, in order to fight wars without the approval of Congress. Note that Gladio is still in effect as official US military doctrine - under different names now, but the modern manifestations go all the way back to the original Gladio doctrine. It would be very important for you to understand who PNAC are and what their very clearly stated intentions are - these are the fascist oligarchs whose dogma allows the Joint Chiefs of Staff to get away with mass murder. Real, actual mass murder, not hyperbole, of cultures deemed culturally inferior by Americas oligarchic ruling class. Note that, even if Americans are not aware of these things, the rest of the world is, and is - I believe - a motivating force behind the rise of BRICS and the general anti-American sentiment that exists outside the Anglosphere bubble. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_C... [1] - https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-iraqi-kids-deaths-worth-it-resurfaces-1691193 https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-ira... [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47aaaFhGtMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47aaaFhGtMM [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

_djo_ 2y ago

Source? None of the organisations tracking Iraqi civilian deaths that have broken down figures by cause show that number caused by US forces directly. If you're including indirect causes too, such as a rise in sectarian violence, deprivation, and increased criminality then, yes, but that's a different statement.

cm2187 2y ago

You may confuse the deaths of the sunni-shia civil war with deaths under US fire. Saddam Hussein like Gaddafi would have died sooner or later. To me there is nothing that suggests that these civil wars wouldn't have happen sooner or later, like in Yugoslavia.

segasaturn 2y ago

Absolutely, positively, unequivocally, yes.