4 ms·

No strings attached… except the lack of an airport (Israel destroyed it in 2001), a sea blockade, tightly controlled land border crossings and periodic attacks

No strings attached… except the lack of an airport (Israel destroyed it in 2001), a sea blockade, tightly controlled land border crossings and periodic attacks on Gaza power and water facilities. You only need to look at the past six months to see that Israel is not “supplying” Gaza with water and electricity out of the goodness of their hearts. While you’re looking at the last six months, perhaps also look at what Israeli government officials have been saying for years. Just last week Bezalel Smotrich called for the “complete destruction” of Gaza — far more explicitly genocidal than “from the river to the sea” — and for the annexation of the West Bank if the UN were to recognize a Palestinian state. That level of hate is, at the very least, heartily reciprocated. I am Jewish, by the way. So inasmuch as this affects Jews as a whole — rather than Israelis specifically — it’s not abstract for me.

rendall 2y ago
This is dishonest. Why were these measures put in place? If any part of your answer is "to oppress Palestinians" the answer is wrong and you should update your information.
- jakelazaroff 2y ago
  Need I remind you that your answer for Palestinian attacks on Israel was literally just “they hate Jews”?
  - rendall 2y ago
    You simplify of course, because my actual argument is harder to counter. I understand if the choice choice is "Palestinians attack Israel as a righteous resistance to oppression" or "Palestinians attack Israel because the idea of living peacefully next to a Jewish state is abhorrent." why a reasonable person would think the first is more likely. It's counter intuitive to our expectations. And you never answered the question. Why were those measures put in place?
    - jakelazaroff 2y ago
      I don’t think “they hate Jews” is a meaningful simplification from “the idea of living peacefully next to a Jewish state is abhorrent.” If your argument is more nuanced, you are doing a poor job communicating it. Anyway, I’ll play ball. First of all, Israel controlled Palestinian movement into and out of the Gaza strip for years before Hamas came into power. In 2000, during the Second Intifada, Israel closed Yasser Arafat International Airport — the only international airport in Gaza. The next year they destroyed it. In 2005, Israel withdrew all settlements from Gaza out of concern that if the Palestinian population kept growing, it would threaten Israel’s ability to be a Jewish state. In 2006, Hamas was elected in Gaza with a plurality of the vote. After the U.S. and Israel backed the previous incumbents Fatah in an attempted coup, Hamas seized full control of the Gaza strip. This is about when Israel imposed the full blockade.
      - rendall 2y ago
        > This is about when Israel imposed the full blockade. about is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Let's walk through more slowly. Israel withdrew from Gaza when? Then imposed a blockade when and in response to what? I'm hearing that Netanyahu supported Hamas, now I'm hearing from you Israel supported Fatah. Which is it? Either way, or both, it sounds pretty nefarious of these wiley, shifty Israelis. They do this simply because they are evil or is there a charitable interpretation that they are addressing a a specific concern?
        jakelazaroff 2y ago
        > I'm hearing that Netanyahu supported Hamas, now I'm hearing from you Israel supported Fatah. Which is it? Netanyahu was not the prime minister at the time of the blockade. Anyway, if you want to read about the coup attempt: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804 https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804 I also made another comment citing Netanyahu stating why he supports Hamas: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40274152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40274152 This is all well documented. But it seems like you are intent on finding charitable interpretations for Israel’s actions while not searching further than “they hate Jews” for Palestine’s. So unless that stance changes, I don’t really see any point in further discussion.
ClumsyPilot 2y ago
There are two colliding views here - one is that Israel is acting in good faith, and the other - that Israel is on a campaign of cruelty. For the believers in the former, i want to bring two facts: > tightly controlled land border for people who think border is there for security, you should be aware that Israel has, for years, blocked imports of essential sanitary products and food items into Gaza, i.e. toilet paper, soap, and humus. Many of the tunnels under gaza were built for smuggling in these items. United states has long protested this policy: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE52A5TA/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE52A5TA/ > Failure of the peace process in 1995 Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin, was assassinated by Israeli religious extremist to sabotage the peace process > The perpetrator was Yigal Amir, a 25-year-old former Hesder student and far-right law student at Bar-Ilan University. Amir had strenuously opposed Rabin's peace initiative, particularly the signing of the Oslo Accords, because he felt that an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank would deny Jews their "biblical heritage which they had reclaimed by establishing settlements".
- jakelazaroff 2y ago
  I’ll add one more, which I alluded to in my first comment. Netanyahu has been supporting and funding Hamas for years, specifically and explicitly to prevent recognition of a Palestinian state. Direct quote: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas.” https://archive.md/2024.04.07-081801/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000 https://archive.md/2024.04.07-081801/https://www.haaretz.com... But yeah, I’m sure all those peace offers were totally legitimate and it’s Palestine’s fault for never being satisfied.
- rendall 2y ago
  > should be aware that Israel has, for years, blocked imports of essential sanitary products and food items into Gaza, i.e. toilet paper, soap, and humus. Many of the tunnels under gaza were built for smuggling in these items Oh, now I understand! This is but a simple misunderstanding! How silly, but easy to clear up. You see, the tunnels came first - into Israel in order to kill Israelis. Only then did Israel and Egypt blockade Gaza. Had nothing to do with smuggling. Now that that is cleared up, you can distrust Hamas and trust Israel. Unless, of course, there's another misunderstanding in your way that I can clear up for us all? https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3267217,00.html https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3267217,00.html (note the date, 2006 - after withdrawal in 2005 but before the blockade in 2007)

rendall 2y ago

This is dishonest. Why were these measures put in place? If any part of your answer is "to oppress Palestinians" the answer is wrong and you should update your information.

jakelazaroff 2y ago
Need I remind you that your answer for Palestinian attacks on Israel was literally just “they hate Jews”?
- rendall 2y ago
  You simplify of course, because my actual argument is harder to counter. I understand if the choice choice is "Palestinians attack Israel as a righteous resistance to oppression" or "Palestinians attack Israel because the idea of living peacefully next to a Jewish state is abhorrent." why a reasonable person would think the first is more likely. It's counter intuitive to our expectations. And you never answered the question. Why were those measures put in place?
  - jakelazaroff 2y ago
    I don’t think “they hate Jews” is a meaningful simplification from “the idea of living peacefully next to a Jewish state is abhorrent.” If your argument is more nuanced, you are doing a poor job communicating it. Anyway, I’ll play ball. First of all, Israel controlled Palestinian movement into and out of the Gaza strip for years before Hamas came into power. In 2000, during the Second Intifada, Israel closed Yasser Arafat International Airport — the only international airport in Gaza. The next year they destroyed it. In 2005, Israel withdrew all settlements from Gaza out of concern that if the Palestinian population kept growing, it would threaten Israel’s ability to be a Jewish state. In 2006, Hamas was elected in Gaza with a plurality of the vote. After the U.S. and Israel backed the previous incumbents Fatah in an attempted coup, Hamas seized full control of the Gaza strip. This is about when Israel imposed the full blockade.
    - rendall 2y ago
      > This is about when Israel imposed the full blockade. about is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Let's walk through more slowly. Israel withdrew from Gaza when? Then imposed a blockade when and in response to what? I'm hearing that Netanyahu supported Hamas, now I'm hearing from you Israel supported Fatah. Which is it? Either way, or both, it sounds pretty nefarious of these wiley, shifty Israelis. They do this simply because they are evil or is there a charitable interpretation that they are addressing a a specific concern?
      - jakelazaroff 2y ago
        > I'm hearing that Netanyahu supported Hamas, now I'm hearing from you Israel supported Fatah. Which is it? Netanyahu was not the prime minister at the time of the blockade. Anyway, if you want to read about the coup attempt: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804 https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804 I also made another comment citing Netanyahu stating why he supports Hamas: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40274152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40274152 This is all well documented. But it seems like you are intent on finding charitable interpretations for Israel’s actions while not searching further than “they hate Jews” for Palestine’s. So unless that stance changes, I don’t really see any point in further discussion.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago

There are two colliding views here - one is that Israel is acting in good faith, and the other - that Israel is on a campaign of cruelty. For the believers in the former, i want to bring two facts: > tightly controlled land border for people who think border is there for security, you should be aware that Israel has, for years, blocked imports of essential sanitary products and food items into Gaza, i.e. toilet paper, soap, and humus. Many of the tunnels under gaza were built for smuggling in these items. United states has long protested this policy: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE52A5TA/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE52A5TA/ > Failure of the peace process in 1995 Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin, was assassinated by Israeli religious extremist to sabotage the peace process > The perpetrator was Yigal Amir, a 25-year-old former Hesder student and far-right law student at Bar-Ilan University. Amir had strenuously opposed Rabin's peace initiative, particularly the signing of the Oslo Accords, because he felt that an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank would deny Jews their "biblical heritage which they had reclaimed by establishing settlements".

jakelazaroff 2y ago
I’ll add one more, which I alluded to in my first comment. Netanyahu has been supporting and funding Hamas for years, specifically and explicitly to prevent recognition of a Palestinian state. Direct quote: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas.” https://archive.md/2024.04.07-081801/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000 https://archive.md/2024.04.07-081801/https://www.haaretz.com... But yeah, I’m sure all those peace offers were totally legitimate and it’s Palestine’s fault for never being satisfied.
rendall 2y ago
> should be aware that Israel has, for years, blocked imports of essential sanitary products and food items into Gaza, i.e. toilet paper, soap, and humus. Many of the tunnels under gaza were built for smuggling in these items Oh, now I understand! This is but a simple misunderstanding! How silly, but easy to clear up. You see, the tunnels came first - into Israel in order to kill Israelis. Only then did Israel and Egypt blockade Gaza. Had nothing to do with smuggling. Now that that is cleared up, you can distrust Hamas and trust Israel. Unless, of course, there's another misunderstanding in your way that I can clear up for us all? https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3267217,00.html https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3267217,00.html (note the date, 2006 - after withdrawal in 2005 but before the blockade in 2007)