6 ms·

Lix is a modern, delicious implementation of the Nix package manager

44 points by deverton 2y ago

binenvsus 2y ago
what is the difference between nix and lix?
- usrme 2y ago
  This is a fork that grew from https://save-nix-together.org/ https://save-nix-together.org/.
  - koverstreet 2y ago
    That's quite a screed.
  - mhh__ 2y ago
    I don't have anything against people going their own way but having been on both ends of this kind of rumble in open source my resounding opinion is that you literally cannot please the aggrieved side. It's a mixture of many things — some people are reasonable and just want sensible change, others are dangerous neurotics who need to go outside; both can end up, deliberately or not, using it as blackmail for control — but the moment the ball gets rolling it's pretty much impossible to stop. I'd bail if a BDFL was an avowed Nazi but the bar for some just seems to be ridiculously low to the point where it's hard to imagine any (offline) social aptitude. I'm not sure what gave me the impression but even from skimming the nix discourse the community's emergent personality did seem a bit snowflake-ish. I've heard people make a kind of reverse-conway argument about Rust attracting (auth-) leftists, perhaps for another time...
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      >BDFL "Benevolent Dictator For Life", most famously Mark Shuttleworth of Ubuntu if I recall.
      - inhumantsar 2y ago
        Guido Rossum of Python
      - WJW 2y ago
        Funny how it probably differs per ~5 years who is the most famous BDFL. I'd have gone for Linus Torvalds as the most famous, or maybe Guido van Rossum.
        vundercind 2y ago
        I’d never seen Shuttleworth labeled a BDFL until this thread. Your two are the first who come to mind.
        Y_Y 2y ago
        https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth He even uses `sabdfl` as his handle.
        vundercind 2y ago
        This self-labeling definitely adds to a… picture I have of the guy, from other practices (like extensive personality testing of job applicants, unusual questions about background)
      - HumblyTossed 2y ago
        Most famous is probably GvR...
  - gus_massa 2y ago
    How many commits has each fork that are not in the other?
    - KingMob 2y ago
      Not sure, but afaik, one of the first big changes was to use Meson for building, instead of Dolstra's homegrown build system. Apparently, the switch to Meson was approved, and coded, ages ago, but Dolstra kept dragging his heels on it.
      - infinisil 2y ago
        I'm afraid the letter spread some misinformation: The meson RFC has in fact not been approved: https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/132 https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/132 For a discussion on this, see https://github.com/KFearsoff/nix-drama-explained/issues/1 https://github.com/KFearsoff/nix-drama-explained/issues/1
        KingMob 2y ago
        Doesn't that get the timeline backwards? I thought the RFC was opened in response to inaction on the part of switching to Meson, which had been informally agreed-on.
        infinisil 2y ago
        I'm going to quote https://save-nix-together.org/ https://save-nix-together.org/: > Single-handedly blocking Meson, which has a passed RFC, for five years because he doesn’t know meson but knows his own build system I don't know about exact timelines, but the letter is definitely wrong about this part.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
Y_Y 2y ago
> Plans include a gradual, piecewise introduction of the memory-safe Rust programming language Oh cool, I had "rewrite in Rust" on my bingo card. Anyway this doesn't seem to be much more than a %s/nix/lix/g so far. I'm all for the right to rage-fork something, but you should be clear that it's not a new project. https://git.lix.systems/lix-project/lix/commits/branch/main https://git.lix.systems/lix-project/lix/commits/branch/main You can see one of their most recent contributors is Eelco Dolstra.
- KingMob 2y ago
  Well, they do say it's a fork in the About and FAQ pages. I'm guessing the front page's aim is to be broader, more newbie-friendly, more forward-looking, etc. > Oh cool, I had "rewrite in Rust" on my bingo card You may also be curious about tvix, which is a greenfield version in Rust, not a fork (but still pretty feature-incomplete, iiuc).
  - Y_Y 2y ago
    Ya, the best case here is that we end up with another implementation with its own benefits. I think that the existence of Guix and tvix (and others?) is beneficial, and the overarching idea of Nix is too big and useful to silo into just one project with one direction in mind.
    - KingMob 2y ago
      Guix is cool, and I like Lisps, but it has very different goals, unfortunately. Culturally, it's quite hostile to any implementation on non-Linux platforms, and I use nix-darwin. I agree the ideas behind nix should spread to how we build software in general.
      - rekado 2y ago
        > quite hostile to any implementation on non-Linux platforms Guix has a usable Hurd implementation, which is a "non-Linux platform".
GardenLetter27 2y ago
I don't understand the issues around Anduril - FOSS grants all users the same rights, that's what it means to be FOSS. And in general it's good to have companies like Anduril. Democracy needs to be defended afterall - as Israel and Ukraine demonstrate.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  I don't think it was ever the issue itself that Anduril was sponsoring a conference. That should be a somewhat neutral issue anyway, any organization should determine what sponsors they want. Of course there is a sizable group of people who view all MIC companies as furthering war, which had objected to the sponsorship on moral grounds. But Anduril never was the only issue.
- delroth 2y ago
  "Right to sponsor a project and get it to advertise your company" does not exist in any FOSS license that I know of. There's pretty much nobody complaining about Anduril using Nix, or even contributing to Nix. Many contributors have placed their ethical line at "accepting money from Anduril in exchange for services at official project events". It's not helpful to misrepresent these things to try and simplify a complicated situation.
sporeray 2y ago
This is just a fork of nixpkgs and nix no?
- kbknapp 2y ago
  This looks to be a fork of NixCpp only. There is also https://aux.computer https://aux.computer that appears to be (the beginning of) a fork of nixpkgs.
  - sporeray 2y ago
    Ah right
unshavedyak 2y ago
What's the goal here? As a Nix[OS] user for a couple years now, the underlying Nix impl is not really on my radar for personal problems i have with Nix. It's entirely about the language and (lack of) language-tooling. I write typed systems on purpose during my day/hobby programming, and dynamic untyped experiences are just no fun for me personally. Nickel is far more interesting to me on my checklist of UX issues. Kinda surprises me to see larger rewrites of various Nix systems that i've not had issue with. Am i missing something?
- constantcrying 2y ago
  >Am i missing something? The issue isn't really technical. It is a conflict over governance of nix, caused by multiple factors among them involvement of US military industry companies sponsoring conferences and a general dissatisfaction with leadership.
- rgoulter 2y ago
  > What's the goal here? ... Am i missing something? Forks tend to be for social reasons, rather than technical. e.g. NeoVim was forked out of frustration relating to a complicated changeset being rejected. Or OpenTofu over licensing issues. There's an open letter (https://save-nix-together.org/ https://save-nix-together.org/) which vents concerns over governance, community moderation, and involvement with Anduril.
- projektfu 2y ago
  I agree, as a new user I think Nix(os/pkgs)'s deficiencies are: 1. Documentation doesn't really explain how NixPkgs works and thus there is a lot of magic that is unintuitive for a new user. 2. The Nix language has a number of annoying gotchas. I always go through several rounds of syntax errors before several rounds of name errors before code can run. 3. Whence this definition? NixPkgs' extreme inversion of control approach makes it hard to guess by looking at code, and I haven't found how to set up good tooling. 4. Clickability. Sometimes you just want an official way to turn things on and off or choose defaults and there is no officially-supported GUI helper. This makes it hard to expect that people will start to use Nix who aren't basically functional programmers already. I don't think I could convince people to use it. 5. Efficiency. Long-ish build times for simple changes, too much memory use to run nixos-rebuild on a small computer.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dataangel 2y ago
There isn't a single user focused reason in "Why Lix?" The alleged benefits of forking exclusively focus on making developers lives easier.
kbknapp 2y ago
Initially I was like, "Oh cool, a new layer on top of Nix to make it more accessible!" And then read on to see it's basically just the NixCpp fork from save-nix-together now with Meson. I guess gradually moving to Rust is a cool idea, but there also exists tvix in that space with a greenfield version in Rust.
HumblyTossed 2y ago
Wait, Nix isn't "modern" anymore? Can we please, for the love of Flying Spaghetti Monsters, stop calling everything new "modern" as if that word adds something to the quality of the product...
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager) says > Initial release June 15, 2003; 20 years ago So... just by calendar time, no, nix probably isn't "modern". Though I do agree that calling a new thing modern isn't the most useful description; much better to say how it's better than the thing that came before it. The steel man is probably that "modern" is shorthand for "the underlying ecosystem/tools have shifted and the old thing suffers for not being able to adopt better ways of doing things, and this new thing will therefore be easier to work on / more robust / more feature-rich / less buggy / etc.", but I'd rather have that be articulated explicitly.
  - rgoulter 2y ago
    > much better to say how it's better than the thing that came before it. I thought the mention of Rust, and versioning the language itself (like what Rust does) covers this. That, and, the last few NixCpp revisions apparently had some significant regressions.
    - HumblyTossed 2y ago
      Then simply say, "Lix, a delicious implementation of the Nix package manager". The word modern is developers "game changer". It's so over used to the point of nauseating.
srid 2y ago
Both this fork (Lix) and the other one (Aux - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40200343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40200343) appeared in the context of the recent Nix drama, related submissions on which are presented below: Open letter to the NixOS foundation (50 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40107370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40107370 The dire state of NixOS's moderation culture (87 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40166912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40166912 --- Additionally, these r/NixOS submissions may be of interest: Jon Ringer: "In case I'm unable to return, wish you all the best" (348 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_unable_to_return_wish_you_all_the_best/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_u... Transparency about jonringer's suspension (153 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceeg8h/transparency_about_jonringers_suspension/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceeg8h/transparency... Thoughts on Jon Ringer's temporary suspension (71 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceiz36/thoughts_on_jon_ringers_temporary_suspension/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceiz36/thoughts_on_... Moderation no-go zones (55 comments; ongoing) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cfv8vo/moderation_nogo_zones/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cfv8vo/moderation_n... --- Finally, the RFC to improve the situation: https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/175 https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/175
- srid 2y ago
  The NixOS community is currently discussing how to appoint a constitutional assembly within 2 weeks (that assembly will decide how to do community governance for the project). The discussions happen on Zulip: https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/ https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/ - and you can request an invite if you've contributed before. Notable threads, which may be relevant to explain why these forks were created include: - https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435937-constitutional-assembly/topic/Selection.20criteria.3A.20marginalized.20groups https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435937-constitu... - https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435724-governance/topic/Fundamental.20Principles https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435724-governan... - https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435937-constitutional-assembly/topic/subtopic.20on.20marginalized.20groups https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435937-constitu...

44 points by deverton 2y ago

binenvsus 2y ago

what is the difference between nix and lix?

usrme 2y ago
This is a fork that grew from https://save-nix-together.org/ https://save-nix-together.org/.
- koverstreet 2y ago
  That's quite a screed.
- mhh__ 2y ago
  I don't have anything against people going their own way but having been on both ends of this kind of rumble in open source my resounding opinion is that you literally cannot please the aggrieved side. It's a mixture of many things — some people are reasonable and just want sensible change, others are dangerous neurotics who need to go outside; both can end up, deliberately or not, using it as blackmail for control — but the moment the ball gets rolling it's pretty much impossible to stop. I'd bail if a BDFL was an avowed Nazi but the bar for some just seems to be ridiculously low to the point where it's hard to imagine any (offline) social aptitude. I'm not sure what gave me the impression but even from skimming the nix discourse the community's emergent personality did seem a bit snowflake-ish. I've heard people make a kind of reverse-conway argument about Rust attracting (auth-) leftists, perhaps for another time...
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    >BDFL "Benevolent Dictator For Life", most famously Mark Shuttleworth of Ubuntu if I recall.
    - inhumantsar 2y ago
      Guido Rossum of Python
    - WJW 2y ago
      Funny how it probably differs per ~5 years who is the most famous BDFL. I'd have gone for Linus Torvalds as the most famous, or maybe Guido van Rossum.
      - vundercind 2y ago
        I’d never seen Shuttleworth labeled a BDFL until this thread. Your two are the first who come to mind.
        Y_Y 2y ago
        https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth He even uses `sabdfl` as his handle.
        vundercind 2y ago
        This self-labeling definitely adds to a… picture I have of the guy, from other practices (like extensive personality testing of job applicants, unusual questions about background)
    - HumblyTossed 2y ago
      Most famous is probably GvR...
- gus_massa 2y ago
  How many commits has each fork that are not in the other?
  - KingMob 2y ago
    Not sure, but afaik, one of the first big changes was to use Meson for building, instead of Dolstra's homegrown build system. Apparently, the switch to Meson was approved, and coded, ages ago, but Dolstra kept dragging his heels on it.
    - infinisil 2y ago
      I'm afraid the letter spread some misinformation: The meson RFC has in fact not been approved: https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/132 https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/132 For a discussion on this, see https://github.com/KFearsoff/nix-drama-explained/issues/1 https://github.com/KFearsoff/nix-drama-explained/issues/1
      - KingMob 2y ago
        Doesn't that get the timeline backwards? I thought the RFC was opened in response to inaction on the part of switching to Meson, which had been informally agreed-on.
        infinisil 2y ago
        I'm going to quote https://save-nix-together.org/ https://save-nix-together.org/: > Single-handedly blocking Meson, which has a passed RFC, for five years because he doesn’t know meson but knows his own build system I don't know about exact timelines, but the letter is definitely wrong about this part.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]

Y_Y 2y ago

> Plans include a gradual, piecewise introduction of the memory-safe Rust programming language Oh cool, I had "rewrite in Rust" on my bingo card. Anyway this doesn't seem to be much more than a %s/nix/lix/g so far. I'm all for the right to rage-fork something, but you should be clear that it's not a new project. https://git.lix.systems/lix-project/lix/commits/branch/main https://git.lix.systems/lix-project/lix/commits/branch/main You can see one of their most recent contributors is Eelco Dolstra.

KingMob 2y ago
Well, they do say it's a fork in the About and FAQ pages. I'm guessing the front page's aim is to be broader, more newbie-friendly, more forward-looking, etc. > Oh cool, I had "rewrite in Rust" on my bingo card You may also be curious about tvix, which is a greenfield version in Rust, not a fork (but still pretty feature-incomplete, iiuc).
- Y_Y 2y ago
  Ya, the best case here is that we end up with another implementation with its own benefits. I think that the existence of Guix and tvix (and others?) is beneficial, and the overarching idea of Nix is too big and useful to silo into just one project with one direction in mind.
  - KingMob 2y ago
    Guix is cool, and I like Lisps, but it has very different goals, unfortunately. Culturally, it's quite hostile to any implementation on non-Linux platforms, and I use nix-darwin. I agree the ideas behind nix should spread to how we build software in general.
    - rekado 2y ago
      > quite hostile to any implementation on non-Linux platforms Guix has a usable Hurd implementation, which is a "non-Linux platform".

GardenLetter27 2y ago

I don't understand the issues around Anduril - FOSS grants all users the same rights, that's what it means to be FOSS. And in general it's good to have companies like Anduril. Democracy needs to be defended afterall - as Israel and Ukraine demonstrate.

constantcrying 2y ago
I don't think it was ever the issue itself that Anduril was sponsoring a conference. That should be a somewhat neutral issue anyway, any organization should determine what sponsors they want. Of course there is a sizable group of people who view all MIC companies as furthering war, which had objected to the sponsorship on moral grounds. But Anduril never was the only issue.
delroth 2y ago
"Right to sponsor a project and get it to advertise your company" does not exist in any FOSS license that I know of. There's pretty much nobody complaining about Anduril using Nix, or even contributing to Nix. Many contributors have placed their ethical line at "accepting money from Anduril in exchange for services at official project events". It's not helpful to misrepresent these things to try and simplify a complicated situation.

sporeray 2y ago

This is just a fork of nixpkgs and nix no?

kbknapp 2y ago
This looks to be a fork of NixCpp only. There is also https://aux.computer https://aux.computer that appears to be (the beginning of) a fork of nixpkgs.
- sporeray 2y ago
  Ah right

unshavedyak 2y ago

What's the goal here? As a Nix[OS] user for a couple years now, the underlying Nix impl is not really on my radar for personal problems i have with Nix. It's entirely about the language and (lack of) language-tooling. I write typed systems on purpose during my day/hobby programming, and dynamic untyped experiences are just no fun for me personally. Nickel is far more interesting to me on my checklist of UX issues. Kinda surprises me to see larger rewrites of various Nix systems that i've not had issue with. Am i missing something?

constantcrying 2y ago
>Am i missing something? The issue isn't really technical. It is a conflict over governance of nix, caused by multiple factors among them involvement of US military industry companies sponsoring conferences and a general dissatisfaction with leadership.
rgoulter 2y ago
> What's the goal here? ... Am i missing something? Forks tend to be for social reasons, rather than technical. e.g. NeoVim was forked out of frustration relating to a complicated changeset being rejected. Or OpenTofu over licensing issues. There's an open letter (https://save-nix-together.org/ https://save-nix-together.org/) which vents concerns over governance, community moderation, and involvement with Anduril.
projektfu 2y ago
I agree, as a new user I think Nix(os/pkgs)'s deficiencies are: 1. Documentation doesn't really explain how NixPkgs works and thus there is a lot of magic that is unintuitive for a new user. 2. The Nix language has a number of annoying gotchas. I always go through several rounds of syntax errors before several rounds of name errors before code can run. 3. Whence this definition? NixPkgs' extreme inversion of control approach makes it hard to guess by looking at code, and I haven't found how to set up good tooling. 4. Clickability. Sometimes you just want an official way to turn things on and off or choose defaults and there is no officially-supported GUI helper. This makes it hard to expect that people will start to use Nix who aren't basically functional programmers already. I don't think I could convince people to use it. 5. Efficiency. Long-ish build times for simple changes, too much memory use to run nixos-rebuild on a small computer.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dataangel 2y ago

There isn't a single user focused reason in "Why Lix?" The alleged benefits of forking exclusively focus on making developers lives easier.

kbknapp 2y ago

Initially I was like, "Oh cool, a new layer on top of Nix to make it more accessible!" And then read on to see it's basically just the NixCpp fork from save-nix-together now with Meson. I guess gradually moving to Rust is a cool idea, but there also exists tvix in that space with a greenfield version in Rust.

HumblyTossed 2y ago

Wait, Nix isn't "modern" anymore? Can we please, for the love of Flying Spaghetti Monsters, stop calling everything new "modern" as if that word adds something to the quality of the product...

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager) says > Initial release June 15, 2003; 20 years ago So... just by calendar time, no, nix probably isn't "modern". Though I do agree that calling a new thing modern isn't the most useful description; much better to say how it's better than the thing that came before it. The steel man is probably that "modern" is shorthand for "the underlying ecosystem/tools have shifted and the old thing suffers for not being able to adopt better ways of doing things, and this new thing will therefore be easier to work on / more robust / more feature-rich / less buggy / etc.", but I'd rather have that be articulated explicitly.
- rgoulter 2y ago
  > much better to say how it's better than the thing that came before it. I thought the mention of Rust, and versioning the language itself (like what Rust does) covers this. That, and, the last few NixCpp revisions apparently had some significant regressions.
  - HumblyTossed 2y ago
    Then simply say, "Lix, a delicious implementation of the Nix package manager". The word modern is developers "game changer". It's so over used to the point of nauseating.

srid 2y ago

Both this fork (Lix) and the other one (Aux - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40200343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40200343) appeared in the context of the recent Nix drama, related submissions on which are presented below: Open letter to the NixOS foundation (50 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40107370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40107370 The dire state of NixOS's moderation culture (87 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40166912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40166912 --- Additionally, these r/NixOS submissions may be of interest: Jon Ringer: "In case I'm unable to return, wish you all the best" (348 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_unable_to_return_wish_you_all_the_best/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cd5fod/in_case_im_u... Transparency about jonringer's suspension (153 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceeg8h/transparency_about_jonringers_suspension/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceeg8h/transparency... Thoughts on Jon Ringer's temporary suspension (71 comments) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceiz36/thoughts_on_jon_ringers_temporary_suspension/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1ceiz36/thoughts_on_... Moderation no-go zones (55 comments; ongoing) https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cfv8vo/moderation_nogo_zones/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/1cfv8vo/moderation_n... --- Finally, the RFC to improve the situation: https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/175 https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/175

srid 2y ago
The NixOS community is currently discussing how to appoint a constitutional assembly within 2 weeks (that assembly will decide how to do community governance for the project). The discussions happen on Zulip: https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/ https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/ - and you can request an invite if you've contributed before. Notable threads, which may be relevant to explain why these forks were created include: - https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435937-constitutional-assembly/topic/Selection.20criteria.3A.20marginalized.20groups https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435937-constitu... - https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435724-governance/topic/Fundamental.20Principles https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435724-governan... - https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435937-constitutional-assembly/topic/subtopic.20on.20marginalized.20groups https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/435937-constitu...