7 ms·

What's the irony, what's the arrogance? You can't just say "what if" without proof (I mean, say whatever you want.. but..) Back up your accusations with simple

by dakom 2y ago

What's the irony, what's the arrogance? You can't just say "what if" without proof (I mean, say whatever you want.. but..) Back up your accusations with simple explanations please, I am not going to go watch 30 minutes of video to suss out your evidence. Israel is the host country to the second largest Palestinian population on earth. I went to the Dead Sea the other day and passed by dozens of Palestinian cars on the road (not Israeli Arabs, which are another huge population- the Palestinians have different license plates). If the goal of Israel was genocide, the number of civilian casualties would be FAR FAR greater than they are. I know programmers aren't necessarily mathematicians, but come on people, this is kindergarten stuff. Look up the number of civilian casualties in America's fight against ISIS. Hamas goes out of their way to use civilians as human shields. Just yesterday Israel had to try and carefully distinguish as a dual UNRWA / Hamas headquarters was put out of commission. The narrative that Israel is commiting genocide in this war is so ridiculously stupid, a failure of basic math skills a 5 year old could do, the only way to believe it is to be horribly misinformed, or to want to believe it. Al Jazeera incites violence by knowingly pushing misinformation on an audience who wants to believe it, to fan the flames of hate. On Holocaust day especially, it's insane to expect Israel to provide resources for blood libels to her enemy in times of war.

loceng 2y ago
So, I'm/we're just supposed to accept your narrative "without proof" but "the other side" requires proof which there is plenty of - but you're clearly not going to be willing to spend the time to read/watch it? Re: "If the goal of Israel was genocide, the number of civilian casualties would be FAR FAR greater than they are." I've heard this fallacious argument regularly - one of the many counter-points the mob is trained with to parrot - stopping them from critically thinking deeper, and keeping the mob relatively done not teaching them anything to keep them in the dark: If they weren't trying to deceive you then they should be teaching you about the broader scope/context of the situation, instead of narrowing-fixating your view on such a shallow metric. E.g. Current bad actors in Israeli government are very aware of the need to maintain public support, support of a weaponized mob to apply distributed "peer pressure" as part of the censorship-suppression-narrative control apparatus that exists; thank God Elon Musk existed to be able to pay a easy $44 billion to take that weaponized media channel out of the hands of censorious bad actors - so even if arguably more lies spread, also arguably it's more likely more truth will also spread. Re: "this is kindergarten stuff" So welcome to my kindergarten class, unless you already realized the broader context that Israel needs to maintain enough public support so the funding tap (that Netanyahu also has bragged on video that he will "milk America dry") to Israel/IDF continues? It doesn't seem you're taking into account that perceptions matter though, even though you believe the side that there is a massive global uprising against the actions of this current Israeli government. Have you ever written out to extrapolate, let's say reverse engineer, how you'd potentially get to this point from a historical point? E.g. we could start at the point Israel was formed as a state, "given" 55% of the Palestinian land - which initially was made up of Arabs and Jews peacefully living together, all of them in that region were called Palestinians - not just the Arabs; I've heard estimates the population of Jewish people in the region was anywhere from 3-7%, being given a highly disproportionate 55% of the land. And then when a "legitimate" war broke out, as was expected to happen - Israel being funded by the military-industrial complex and the captured coffers of and for the pillaging of the United States of America - they of course won being outgunned, and took 70%+ of the land. Do you know yet or even believe that Netanyahu funded Hamas? As unbelievable as that sounds, it's documented - along with the purpose. Netanyahu is also very aware of and has spoken about on video about 5th generation warfare - psychological warfare tactics including but not limited to subversion. Are you aware of any of that, and what's your take on it? Netanyahu from a fairly young age also has had the stance that should not be a two-state solution, that Palestinians don't have a right to a state: does that make it more or less likely that he'd be willing to do unwarranted harm against them to support his fundamental beliefs? P.S. If you're not willing to actually invest time into seeking out the truth, you're highly likely an ideologue and indoctrinated into narratives you've been trained with over many decades. Most ideologues are more lazy than not - refuse to engage at any depth - and then cite things generally, if they put in that much effort because they feel the need to be the last one to respond usually ; or whether that is because they "don't have time" - the consequences are the same. So what's your time limit for video clips? 2 minutes? Do you think you can learn an alternative perspective without going into any depth about it, or spending say 20+ hours studying what the other side. Obviously I'm not going to waste more time providing you more links to videos or articles, if even the ~5 minute video is too long for you. You're also falling for the propaganda that this is a war, it's not: they are an occupied land, recognized by international law and they are required by international law to have a higher duty of care for those they occupy; if you want to claim they're not occupied, then how did Israel turn off their water, electricity, etc. the moment they wanted to? If this conversation did actually continue, and we kept engaging, then I am 80% confident that I'd be able to predict other rhetoric that then presents itself as more recent layers of learned reflexive narrative talking points of belief are deconstructed. The problem is, this conversation in general, where everyone has the opportunity to put their points forward in a long-form format - over a lot of time, to create a single corpus for the layperson to follow along with and learn from - is prevented from happening; already pointed out to what the pro-Israel / arguably pro-genocide supporting side's (mislead primarily via manufactured consent) most recent "tip of the spear" move was Ben Shapiro/Daily Wire getting a gag order on Candace Owens - in secret - while publicly pretending to arrange a public debate between Shapiro and Owens - because propagandists know that too bright of a spotlight shown on their incongruent logic will start to shatter the veil of their blind followers. The fun part to all of this - or by fun I guess I mean what is exciting and good to look forward to, to work towards for the much brighter future coming: - In the future we'll train our own personal AI Avatars - and those avatars that are better trained will obliterate others less trained, if put up head-to-head in a conversation, say on Israel-Palestine; and then automated systems, trained initially by us, will be able to highlight the points of cognitive dissonance and/or incongruences in logic - in narrative statements presented; because this is tiring, but it is work - and work that is the most important work if you care about human life, human life as sacred vs. "kill Hamas at all costs" vs. - the reason you don't go full genocidal fascist behaviour is because it's possible - and in this case is the case - that heartless sociopath-psychopath authoritarians will pull strings towards manufacturing consent to deceive others into doing their evil bidding for them; it only took a handful of people to run the concentration-death camps in NaZi Germany - the rest of the Gestapo "just" gathered up the Jews, the crippled, etc, and loaded them onto trains - probably able to tell themselves Conclusions, How do you process the incongruence that interviews like this one - with head head of Israeli intelligence, is actually on the side of the Palestinians for what Israel/IDF has done and is doing to them: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5pI0nLBxR3/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5pI0nLBxR3/ Is it a fake video, fake interview? Do you think an ex-head of IDF's intelligence agency wouldn't know exactly 100% of the truth?
- dakom 2y ago
  > So, I'm/we're just supposed to accept your narrative "without proof" but "the other side" requires proof No, not at all, the number of Palestinians in Israel is a matter of public record. The Hamas strategy of human shields is extremely well documented. It's trivial to get footage of Palestinians driving on Israeli roads without hassle. Literally only need to go to a supermarket 15 minutes outside of Jerusalem, even in Jewish areas like mishor adumim. > unless you already realized the broader context that Israel needs to maintain enough public support Huh? There's no "broader context" to accusations of genocide. Either Israel has a policy of murdering all the Palestinians or it doesn't. It doesn't. (Though there isn't really a genetic difference between Palestinians and Jordanian/Egyptian Arabs, not sure if that would even be genocide- but that's semantics, Israel is obviously not trying to wipe these people out, even if their identity is based on recent tribal affiliations) Eh.. honestly, I'd go through your response point by point, but you are both clueless _and_ passionate, which is a combo I don't feel like dealing with. If we're going into "you should watch", I literally worked on a documentary series about the formation of the state of Israel called "Faith and Fate", produced by Rabbi Berel Wein. It covers the period leading up to the state of Israel. It speaks to some of the issues you brought up like pogroms against Jews in Israel in the 1920's, the white paper, yearning of the indigenous people to return to their homeland for a couple thousand years, etc. etc.
  - loceng 2y ago
    That video clip is is literally ~1 minute long - I DARE YOU TO WATCH IT, and then give your response to it: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5pI0nLBxR3/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5pI0nLBxR3/ Re: 'If we're going into "you should watch", I literally worked on a documentary series about the formation of the state of Israel called "Faith and Fate"' You're playing the avoidance game - to avoid having to challenge your currently blindly-unchallenged narrative you've convinced yourself is the truth; common practice of an ideologue who's beliefs can't hold water once challenged. Re: "Either Israel has a policy of murdering all the Palestinians or it doesn't. It doesn't." This is called bipolar or all-or-nothing thinking. You either have a mental block or you're being intellectually dishonest by not being willing, avoiding actually integrating my logic into your thinking to then respond to that vs. blatant knee-jerk reaction dismissal. And you throw in ad hominem claiming I'm clueless while 1) only shallowly answering a cherrypicked few points so it looks like you responded, and 2) to avoid entering into a logic thread that will break apart your beliefs.

by dakom 2y ago

loceng 2y ago

So, I'm/we're just supposed to accept your narrative "without proof" but "the other side" requires proof which there is plenty of - but you're clearly not going to be willing to spend the time to read/watch it? Re: "If the goal of Israel was genocide, the number of civilian casualties would be FAR FAR greater than they are." I've heard this fallacious argument regularly - one of the many counter-points the mob is trained with to parrot - stopping them from critically thinking deeper, and keeping the mob relatively done not teaching them anything to keep them in the dark: If they weren't trying to deceive you then they should be teaching you about the broader scope/context of the situation, instead of narrowing-fixating your view on such a shallow metric. E.g. Current bad actors in Israeli government are very aware of the need to maintain public support, support of a weaponized mob to apply distributed "peer pressure" as part of the censorship-suppression-narrative control apparatus that exists; thank God Elon Musk existed to be able to pay a easy $44 billion to take that weaponized media channel out of the hands of censorious bad actors - so even if arguably more lies spread, also arguably it's more likely more truth will also spread. Re: "this is kindergarten stuff" So welcome to my kindergarten class, unless you already realized the broader context that Israel needs to maintain enough public support so the funding tap (that Netanyahu also has bragged on video that he will "milk America dry") to Israel/IDF continues? It doesn't seem you're taking into account that perceptions matter though, even though you believe the side that there is a massive global uprising against the actions of this current Israeli government. Have you ever written out to extrapolate, let's say reverse engineer, how you'd potentially get to this point from a historical point? E.g. we could start at the point Israel was formed as a state, "given" 55% of the Palestinian land - which initially was made up of Arabs and Jews peacefully living together, all of them in that region were called Palestinians - not just the Arabs; I've heard estimates the population of Jewish people in the region was anywhere from 3-7%, being given a highly disproportionate 55% of the land. And then when a "legitimate" war broke out, as was expected to happen - Israel being funded by the military-industrial complex and the captured coffers of and for the pillaging of the United States of America - they of course won being outgunned, and took 70%+ of the land. Do you know yet or even believe that Netanyahu funded Hamas? As unbelievable as that sounds, it's documented - along with the purpose. Netanyahu is also very aware of and has spoken about on video about 5th generation warfare - psychological warfare tactics including but not limited to subversion. Are you aware of any of that, and what's your take on it? Netanyahu from a fairly young age also has had the stance that should not be a two-state solution, that Palestinians don't have a right to a state: does that make it more or less likely that he'd be willing to do unwarranted harm against them to support his fundamental beliefs? P.S. If you're not willing to actually invest time into seeking out the truth, you're highly likely an ideologue and indoctrinated into narratives you've been trained with over many decades. Most ideologues are more lazy than not - refuse to engage at any depth - and then cite things generally, if they put in that much effort because they feel the need to be the last one to respond usually ; or whether that is because they "don't have time" - the consequences are the same. So what's your time limit for video clips? 2 minutes? Do you think you can learn an alternative perspective without going into any depth about it, or spending say 20+ hours studying what the other side. Obviously I'm not going to waste more time providing you more links to videos or articles, if even the ~5 minute video is too long for you. You're also falling for the propaganda that this is a war, it's not: they are an occupied land, recognized by international law and they are required by international law to have a higher duty of care for those they occupy; if you want to claim they're not occupied, then how did Israel turn off their water, electricity, etc. the moment they wanted to? If this conversation did actually continue, and we kept engaging, then I am 80% confident that I'd be able to predict other rhetoric that then presents itself as more recent layers of learned reflexive narrative talking points of belief are deconstructed. The problem is, this conversation in general, where everyone has the opportunity to put their points forward in a long-form format - over a lot of time, to create a single corpus for the layperson to follow along with and learn from - is prevented from happening; already pointed out to what the pro-Israel / arguably pro-genocide supporting side's (mislead primarily via manufactured consent) most recent "tip of the spear" move was Ben Shapiro/Daily Wire getting a gag order on Candace Owens - in secret - while publicly pretending to arrange a public debate between Shapiro and Owens - because propagandists know that too bright of a spotlight shown on their incongruent logic will start to shatter the veil of their blind followers. The fun part to all of this - or by fun I guess I mean what is exciting and good to look forward to, to work towards for the much brighter future coming: - In the future we'll train our own personal AI Avatars - and those avatars that are better trained will obliterate others less trained, if put up head-to-head in a conversation, say on Israel-Palestine; and then automated systems, trained initially by us, will be able to highlight the points of cognitive dissonance and/or incongruences in logic - in narrative statements presented; because this is tiring, but it is work - and work that is the most important work if you care about human life, human life as sacred vs. "kill Hamas at all costs" vs. - the reason you don't go full genocidal fascist behaviour is because it's possible - and in this case is the case - that heartless sociopath-psychopath authoritarians will pull strings towards manufacturing consent to deceive others into doing their evil bidding for them; it only took a handful of people to run the concentration-death camps in NaZi Germany - the rest of the Gestapo "just" gathered up the Jews, the crippled, etc, and loaded them onto trains - probably able to tell themselves Conclusions, How do you process the incongruence that interviews like this one - with head head of Israeli intelligence, is actually on the side of the Palestinians for what Israel/IDF has done and is doing to them: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5pI0nLBxR3/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5pI0nLBxR3/ Is it a fake video, fake interview? Do you think an ex-head of IDF's intelligence agency wouldn't know exactly 100% of the truth?

dakom 2y ago
> So, I'm/we're just supposed to accept your narrative "without proof" but "the other side" requires proof No, not at all, the number of Palestinians in Israel is a matter of public record. The Hamas strategy of human shields is extremely well documented. It's trivial to get footage of Palestinians driving on Israeli roads without hassle. Literally only need to go to a supermarket 15 minutes outside of Jerusalem, even in Jewish areas like mishor adumim. > unless you already realized the broader context that Israel needs to maintain enough public support Huh? There's no "broader context" to accusations of genocide. Either Israel has a policy of murdering all the Palestinians or it doesn't. It doesn't. (Though there isn't really a genetic difference between Palestinians and Jordanian/Egyptian Arabs, not sure if that would even be genocide- but that's semantics, Israel is obviously not trying to wipe these people out, even if their identity is based on recent tribal affiliations) Eh.. honestly, I'd go through your response point by point, but you are both clueless _and_ passionate, which is a combo I don't feel like dealing with. If we're going into "you should watch", I literally worked on a documentary series about the formation of the state of Israel called "Faith and Fate", produced by Rabbi Berel Wein. It covers the period leading up to the state of Israel. It speaks to some of the issues you brought up like pogroms against Jews in Israel in the 1920's, the white paper, yearning of the indigenous people to return to their homeland for a couple thousand years, etc. etc.
- loceng 2y ago
  That video clip is is literally ~1 minute long - I DARE YOU TO WATCH IT, and then give your response to it: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5pI0nLBxR3/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5pI0nLBxR3/ Re: 'If we're going into "you should watch", I literally worked on a documentary series about the formation of the state of Israel called "Faith and Fate"' You're playing the avoidance game - to avoid having to challenge your currently blindly-unchallenged narrative you've convinced yourself is the truth; common practice of an ideologue who's beliefs can't hold water once challenged. Re: "Either Israel has a policy of murdering all the Palestinians or it doesn't. It doesn't." This is called bipolar or all-or-nothing thinking. You either have a mental block or you're being intellectually dishonest by not being willing, avoiding actually integrating my logic into your thinking to then respond to that vs. blatant knee-jerk reaction dismissal. And you throw in ad hominem claiming I'm clueless while 1) only shallowly answering a cherrypicked few points so it looks like you responded, and 2) to avoid entering into a logic thread that will break apart your beliefs.