4 ms·

An excellent example of why capitalistic measurements of "value" are a death-cult method of making decisions.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
That's a nice sentiment and all, but in reality, value of life will always be convertible to dollars if you talk about it and anything else in the same sentence. You are putting a finite dollar value on your own life each time you get out of the bed, or cross the street.
- p_l 3y ago
  Life is in many ways always convertible. The death cult aspect of it is assigning value of life based on capitalist net worth.
- komali2 3y ago
  > but in reality, value of life will always be convertible to dollars if you talk about it and anything else in the same sentence. > You are putting a finite dollar value on your own life each time you get out of the bed, or cross the street. Can you explain how? I'm extremely confident I've never put a dollar value on my or anyone else's life. To me, human life is immeasurably valuable.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    You do it implicitly. Say you decide to grab a coffee from a coffee shop. You need to cross a busy street for that. If the coffee costs $5, and the chance of you getting killed by crossing the street is 1 in 100 000, then by getting that coffee you demonstrate you value your life at less than $500 000 --- value of life * probability of death < cost of coffee.
    - komali2 3y ago
      I don't think that works for me. I don't make that calculation at all, and you're comparing apples and oranges anyway. The cost of coffee has nothing to do with my risk assessment of a situation. Of course I make risk assessments but they have nothing to do with money. You might try to measure the value of my life in dollars by measuring my risk assessments, but because I'm irrational and human you won't get very far I don't think, and besides, dollar value doesn't really correlate well with actual value anyway.
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        In this context, dollar value is the only one that matters, because it's common comparison base of everything. The only way to compare apples to apples is in dollars. I'm not arguing that you're running this calculation in your head, nor that any of us makes rational risk assessments. My point is that every such assessment implied by doing anything implicitly establishes a dollar value for life, that this value is always finite and must be so, and that you can learn something from looking at them in aggregate.
        komali2 3y ago
        > dollar value is the only one that matters, because it's common comparison base of everything. Doesn't this only work if there's consensus on these dollar values? So first of all, weird anarchists like me are a lost cause, because we refuse to participate in measuring human lives in dollars. You might then argue that's fine, normal people like yourself will continue to measure things in dollars, however I'd point out, that even normal people like yourself fail to achieve consensus on dollar values for things like risks, lives, etc. From where I stand, it all looks very arbitrary, and completely detached from any kind of reality. For example, real estate. Many would say the market finds the "real value" of a house. It's so expensive right now, because we don't have that many houses to live in. Right? Yet rent is rising higher against salaries year on year: https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/average-rent-by-year https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/average-rent-by-yea... despite vacancies seeming to never move below 4% and above 7% https://en.macromicro.me/charts/22864/us-house-vacancy https://en.macromicro.me/charts/22864/us-house-vacancy . And now we find out some of the reasons for that are collusion among landlords and agencies: https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-realpage-rent https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r... (reported on as early as 2022). So if you normal folks can't even decide on the value of the house (or stock, or NFT, or pokemon card), or can simply manipulate this value, why should it be believed when you claim to have figured out the value of a human life? Especially because none of these measurements take into considerations things that actually matter for humans, e.g., that housing is necessary for a reasonably comfortable life and should simply be guaranteed in a society this wealthy?
    - cooolbear 3y ago
      I don't think like this and no one really thinks like this. It is a shallow analysis that can only really be done after the fact and is, at best, a curiosity
      - CooCooCaCha 3y ago
        It’s wild how capitalism enthusiasts will throw numbers around and confidently assert that their arbitrary concoction is accurate and meaningful.
    - tomjakubowski 3y ago
      this doesn't make any sense. If tomorrow, I decide to cross the same street to buy a $50,000 watch, now suddenly I am valuing my life 1000x? And what about the next day, when I go to cross the same street for a $5 cup of coffee again?
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        You're establishing an upper bound for cost, not the cost itself. So min($5, $50000, $5) is still just $5.
        CooCooCaCha 3y ago
        What if I walk across the street for free? Do I not value my life? What is this nonsense?
        TeMPOraL 2y ago
        Well, if you randomly stroll through a busy street for no reason whatsoever, despite the real if small possibility this could kill you, then what else should I conclude?
        komali2 2y ago
        That they enjoy walking? That they're engaging in civil disobedience to protest car centric road design?
  - perilunar 3y ago
    Of course you have. When you work for money you trade your time (i.e. a small bit of your life) for dollars. Money itself is ultimately an abstraction for human labour.
    - komali2 3y ago
      Hm. I don't know. That's describing time, which you describe as a slice of my life, aka opportunity cost, but that only works if I define my life by opportunity slices to make money. Since I don't think about life that way, I'm not sure it works. Besides, money doesn't correlate with time spent at all. Sometimes I make lots of money per hour, sometimes I don't, but every second bill gates does nothing he makes huge amounts of money per hour. It would be absurd to suggest his life is more valuable than mine as a result, wouldn't it? Just doesn't make any sense.
CooCooCaCha 3y ago
The parent comment and child comments are also great examples of how dumb libertarian-type thinking is. I’m sure these people think they sound smart and I’m sure some people read those comments and think “wow they sound smart, they use the word ‘value’ a lot.” But it’s the opposite, they’re really, really dumb and shallow thoughts. Obviously capitalistic value is not the same thing as human value and trying to say they are is just silly. However, I’d rather focus on the parent comment. When you think about it, it’s really really shallow and narrowly focused. The value of Manhattan is far more than “wealthy people do stuff here”, there is value around every street, there is value in general safety, there’s value in emotional connections like nostalgia and family ties. The equation is far more complex. It’s also interesting because this is what libertarians do all the time. They’ll say things like “why should i pay for that street if i don’t use it?” And don’t think about nth-order effects like maybe the people who do use that street might indirectly bring value to your life. Perhaps grocery items get delivered that way for example.

That's a nice sentiment and all, but in reality, value of life will always be convertible to dollars if you talk about it and anything else in the same sentence. You are putting a finite dollar value on your own life each time you get out of the bed, or cross the street.

p_l 3y ago
Life is in many ways always convertible. The death cult aspect of it is assigning value of life based on capitalist net worth.
komali2 3y ago
> but in reality, value of life will always be convertible to dollars if you talk about it and anything else in the same sentence. > You are putting a finite dollar value on your own life each time you get out of the bed, or cross the street. Can you explain how? I'm extremely confident I've never put a dollar value on my or anyone else's life. To me, human life is immeasurably valuable.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  You do it implicitly. Say you decide to grab a coffee from a coffee shop. You need to cross a busy street for that. If the coffee costs $5, and the chance of you getting killed by crossing the street is 1 in 100 000, then by getting that coffee you demonstrate you value your life at less than $500 000 --- value of life * probability of death < cost of coffee.
  - komali2 3y ago
    I don't think that works for me. I don't make that calculation at all, and you're comparing apples and oranges anyway. The cost of coffee has nothing to do with my risk assessment of a situation. Of course I make risk assessments but they have nothing to do with money. You might try to measure the value of my life in dollars by measuring my risk assessments, but because I'm irrational and human you won't get very far I don't think, and besides, dollar value doesn't really correlate well with actual value anyway.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      In this context, dollar value is the only one that matters, because it's common comparison base of everything. The only way to compare apples to apples is in dollars. I'm not arguing that you're running this calculation in your head, nor that any of us makes rational risk assessments. My point is that every such assessment implied by doing anything implicitly establishes a dollar value for life, that this value is always finite and must be so, and that you can learn something from looking at them in aggregate.
      - komali2 3y ago
        > dollar value is the only one that matters, because it's common comparison base of everything. Doesn't this only work if there's consensus on these dollar values? So first of all, weird anarchists like me are a lost cause, because we refuse to participate in measuring human lives in dollars. You might then argue that's fine, normal people like yourself will continue to measure things in dollars, however I'd point out, that even normal people like yourself fail to achieve consensus on dollar values for things like risks, lives, etc. From where I stand, it all looks very arbitrary, and completely detached from any kind of reality. For example, real estate. Many would say the market finds the "real value" of a house. It's so expensive right now, because we don't have that many houses to live in. Right? Yet rent is rising higher against salaries year on year: https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/average-rent-by-year https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/average-rent-by-yea... despite vacancies seeming to never move below 4% and above 7% https://en.macromicro.me/charts/22864/us-house-vacancy https://en.macromicro.me/charts/22864/us-house-vacancy . And now we find out some of the reasons for that are collusion among landlords and agencies: https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-realpage-rent https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r... (reported on as early as 2022). So if you normal folks can't even decide on the value of the house (or stock, or NFT, or pokemon card), or can simply manipulate this value, why should it be believed when you claim to have figured out the value of a human life? Especially because none of these measurements take into considerations things that actually matter for humans, e.g., that housing is necessary for a reasonably comfortable life and should simply be guaranteed in a society this wealthy?
  - cooolbear 3y ago
    I don't think like this and no one really thinks like this. It is a shallow analysis that can only really be done after the fact and is, at best, a curiosity
    - CooCooCaCha 3y ago
      It’s wild how capitalism enthusiasts will throw numbers around and confidently assert that their arbitrary concoction is accurate and meaningful.
  - tomjakubowski 3y ago
    this doesn't make any sense. If tomorrow, I decide to cross the same street to buy a $50,000 watch, now suddenly I am valuing my life 1000x? And what about the next day, when I go to cross the same street for a $5 cup of coffee again?
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      You're establishing an upper bound for cost, not the cost itself. So min($5, $50000, $5) is still just $5.
      - CooCooCaCha 3y ago
        What if I walk across the street for free? Do I not value my life? What is this nonsense?
        TeMPOraL 2y ago
        Well, if you randomly stroll through a busy street for no reason whatsoever, despite the real if small possibility this could kill you, then what else should I conclude?
        komali2 2y ago
        That they enjoy walking? That they're engaging in civil disobedience to protest car centric road design?
- perilunar 3y ago
  Of course you have. When you work for money you trade your time (i.e. a small bit of your life) for dollars. Money itself is ultimately an abstraction for human labour.
  - komali2 3y ago
    Hm. I don't know. That's describing time, which you describe as a slice of my life, aka opportunity cost, but that only works if I define my life by opportunity slices to make money. Since I don't think about life that way, I'm not sure it works. Besides, money doesn't correlate with time spent at all. Sometimes I make lots of money per hour, sometimes I don't, but every second bill gates does nothing he makes huge amounts of money per hour. It would be absurd to suggest his life is more valuable than mine as a result, wouldn't it? Just doesn't make any sense.

CooCooCaCha 3y ago

The parent comment and child comments are also great examples of how dumb libertarian-type thinking is. I’m sure these people think they sound smart and I’m sure some people read those comments and think “wow they sound smart, they use the word ‘value’ a lot.” But it’s the opposite, they’re really, really dumb and shallow thoughts. Obviously capitalistic value is not the same thing as human value and trying to say they are is just silly. However, I’d rather focus on the parent comment. When you think about it, it’s really really shallow and narrowly focused. The value of Manhattan is far more than “wealthy people do stuff here”, there is value around every street, there is value in general safety, there’s value in emotional connections like nostalgia and family ties. The equation is far more complex. It’s also interesting because this is what libertarians do all the time. They’ll say things like “why should i pay for that street if i don’t use it?” And don’t think about nth-order effects like maybe the people who do use that street might indirectly bring value to your life. Perhaps grocery items get delivered that way for example.