4 ms·

"failure of peace process" is quite the spin. In 2005, the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza meant the IDF leaving and taking all Jews from the area with them. T

"failure of peace process" is quite the spin. In 2005, the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza meant the IDF leaving and taking all Jews from the area with them. That's about as pro-peace as you can get. Israel saying in essence "Here you go, Palestinians. Take all of Gaza in peace. No strings attached. We will supply you with water and electricity too!" Gazans elected Hamas and then fired so many rockets at Israelis that they had to invent a new technology to protect themselves. Gazans dug tunnels under the border with Israel for no other purpose than to kill Israelis. Yeah, like most humans, we Westerners have experience of hate, but no, Westerners do not have living experience of that level of hate. Well, Jews do.

sneak 2y ago
One of the attached strings is that they aren't allowed to have a meaningful airport or seaport. It's a misrepresentation to suggest that Gaza has been free to self-realize given that it's basically been under a light-touch siege for decades.
- rendall 2y ago
  That was not an original "string". The question is, and be honest: why was there a blockade? How long did Palestinians have Gaza and no blockade? What happened then?
lazyasciiart 2y ago
“No strings attached, no access to the rest of the world without our permission”. I think you’re not seeing the strings for the wall.
- rendall 2y ago
  This is dishonest. Try again, please. Why was "access to the rest of the world", by which I guess you mean the Egypt-Israeli blockade, put in place? When?
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    You "guess"? For someone who thinks the rest of us are so ignorant on this... Gaza's (only) Airport, which had its radar station and control tower bombed in 2001, and its runways cut up by IDF bulldozers in 2002. Gaza's port has been intermittently blockaded by the Israeli Navy since 2005, and permanently since 2007. > Exit and entry into Gaza by sea or air is prohibited. There are only three crossings in and out of Gaza, two of them controlled by Israel and one by Egypt. Israel heavily regulates Palestinians' movement through Erez, with applications considered only for a small number of laborers (less than 5% of the number considered in 2000) and for limited medical and humanitarian reasons.[6] Israel's military cooperation with Egypt and its control of the population registry (through which it controls who can obtain the necessary travel documents) gives it influence over movement through Rafah. Certainly sounds like "access to the rest of the world" is being prohibited.
    - rendall 2y ago
      Just for shiggles? No particular reason? Keep going. In response to Palestinians doing .... what?
      - FireBeyond 2y ago
        I think you mean "In response to Hamas, funded in part by the Likud administration, because the PLA was being increasingly seen as conciliatory and willing to seek diplomacy (who knows why, tiredness of conflict, Arafat growing more philosophical in his late life), which caused awkward questions of "if they are willing to negotiate, why isn't Israel?"." Hamas was propped up by the hard right wing because they made a more visible enemy. So, if Hamas is dedicated to "exterminating Jews" as you say, then why would Israel give them funding and support against the PLA? Hamas is ~38,000 of 2.5M people. And thanks to those embargoes and blockades, they're the only ones who are really armed in Palestine.
        rendall 2y ago
        You're contorting the answer in order not to answer. The blockade was put in place in response to what, when? 2005, unilateral withdrawal from Gaza 2006, Gazans peacefully went about their lives, setting up - and minding their own - businesses, made trade contacts, geared up a booming tourist industry...? No. That's not what happened, is it. I'm sure you can find a way to blame Israel for Palestinian choices, but that helps no one. 2007, blockade, out of the blue with no rhyme or reason. Just to flex, and watch the world burn. If you care about peace, you won't do these weird contortions to explain Israel's actions. As with Hamas, Israel explains the reasons for its actions very clearly but largely boils down to "leave us alone or FAFO".
jakelazaroff 2y ago
No strings attached… except the lack of an airport (Israel destroyed it in 2001), a sea blockade, tightly controlled land border crossings and periodic attacks on Gaza power and water facilities. You only need to look at the past six months to see that Israel is not “supplying” Gaza with water and electricity out of the goodness of their hearts. While you’re looking at the last six months, perhaps also look at what Israeli government officials have been saying for years. Just last week Bezalel Smotrich called for the “complete destruction” of Gaza — far more explicitly genocidal than “from the river to the sea” — and for the annexation of the West Bank if the UN were to recognize a Palestinian state. That level of hate is, at the very least, heartily reciprocated. I am Jewish, by the way. So inasmuch as this affects Jews as a whole — rather than Israelis specifically — it’s not abstract for me.
- rendall 2y ago
  This is dishonest. Why were these measures put in place? If any part of your answer is "to oppress Palestinians" the answer is wrong and you should update your information.
  - jakelazaroff 2y ago
    Need I remind you that your answer for Palestinian attacks on Israel was literally just “they hate Jews”?
    - rendall 2y ago
      You simplify of course, because my actual argument is harder to counter. I understand if the choice choice is "Palestinians attack Israel as a righteous resistance to oppression" or "Palestinians attack Israel because the idea of living peacefully next to a Jewish state is abhorrent." why a reasonable person would think the first is more likely. It's counter intuitive to our expectations. And you never answered the question. Why were those measures put in place?
      - jakelazaroff 2y ago

sneak 2y ago

One of the attached strings is that they aren't allowed to have a meaningful airport or seaport. It's a misrepresentation to suggest that Gaza has been free to self-realize given that it's basically been under a light-touch siege for decades.

rendall 2y ago
That was not an original "string". The question is, and be honest: why was there a blockade? How long did Palestinians have Gaza and no blockade? What happened then?

lazyasciiart 2y ago

“No strings attached, no access to the rest of the world without our permission”. I think you’re not seeing the strings for the wall.

rendall 2y ago
This is dishonest. Try again, please. Why was "access to the rest of the world", by which I guess you mean the Egypt-Israeli blockade, put in place? When?
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  You "guess"? For someone who thinks the rest of us are so ignorant on this... Gaza's (only) Airport, which had its radar station and control tower bombed in 2001, and its runways cut up by IDF bulldozers in 2002. Gaza's port has been intermittently blockaded by the Israeli Navy since 2005, and permanently since 2007. > Exit and entry into Gaza by sea or air is prohibited. There are only three crossings in and out of Gaza, two of them controlled by Israel and one by Egypt. Israel heavily regulates Palestinians' movement through Erez, with applications considered only for a small number of laborers (less than 5% of the number considered in 2000) and for limited medical and humanitarian reasons.[6] Israel's military cooperation with Egypt and its control of the population registry (through which it controls who can obtain the necessary travel documents) gives it influence over movement through Rafah. Certainly sounds like "access to the rest of the world" is being prohibited.
  - rendall 2y ago
    Just for shiggles? No particular reason? Keep going. In response to Palestinians doing .... what?
    - FireBeyond 2y ago
      I think you mean "In response to Hamas, funded in part by the Likud administration, because the PLA was being increasingly seen as conciliatory and willing to seek diplomacy (who knows why, tiredness of conflict, Arafat growing more philosophical in his late life), which caused awkward questions of "if they are willing to negotiate, why isn't Israel?"." Hamas was propped up by the hard right wing because they made a more visible enemy. So, if Hamas is dedicated to "exterminating Jews" as you say, then why would Israel give them funding and support against the PLA? Hamas is ~38,000 of 2.5M people. And thanks to those embargoes and blockades, they're the only ones who are really armed in Palestine.
      - rendall 2y ago
        You're contorting the answer in order not to answer. The blockade was put in place in response to what, when? 2005, unilateral withdrawal from Gaza 2006, Gazans peacefully went about their lives, setting up - and minding their own - businesses, made trade contacts, geared up a booming tourist industry...? No. That's not what happened, is it. I'm sure you can find a way to blame Israel for Palestinian choices, but that helps no one. 2007, blockade, out of the blue with no rhyme or reason. Just to flex, and watch the world burn. If you care about peace, you won't do these weird contortions to explain Israel's actions. As with Hamas, Israel explains the reasons for its actions very clearly but largely boils down to "leave us alone or FAFO".

jakelazaroff 2y ago

No strings attached… except the lack of an airport (Israel destroyed it in 2001), a sea blockade, tightly controlled land border crossings and periodic attacks on Gaza power and water facilities. You only need to look at the past six months to see that Israel is not “supplying” Gaza with water and electricity out of the goodness of their hearts. While you’re looking at the last six months, perhaps also look at what Israeli government officials have been saying for years. Just last week Bezalel Smotrich called for the “complete destruction” of Gaza — far more explicitly genocidal than “from the river to the sea” — and for the annexation of the West Bank if the UN were to recognize a Palestinian state. That level of hate is, at the very least, heartily reciprocated. I am Jewish, by the way. So inasmuch as this affects Jews as a whole — rather than Israelis specifically — it’s not abstract for me.

rendall 2y ago
This is dishonest. Why were these measures put in place? If any part of your answer is "to oppress Palestinians" the answer is wrong and you should update your information.
- jakelazaroff 2y ago
  Need I remind you that your answer for Palestinian attacks on Israel was literally just “they hate Jews”?
  - rendall 2y ago
    You simplify of course, because my actual argument is harder to counter. I understand if the choice choice is "Palestinians attack Israel as a righteous resistance to oppression" or "Palestinians attack Israel because the idea of living peacefully next to a Jewish state is abhorrent." why a reasonable person would think the first is more likely. It's counter intuitive to our expectations. And you never answered the question. Why were those measures put in place?
    - jakelazaroff 2y ago