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> We see this with open chants of "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" I particularly object to taking worst possible interpretation, and labell

> We see this with open chants of "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" I particularly object to taking worst possible interpretation, and labelling the slogan as a call for ethnic cleansing. The phrase "will be free" would not normally be interpreted this was in in any other conflict.

rendall 2y ago
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- deleted 2y ago
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- jakelazaroff 2y ago
  I would describe this as a motte and bailey: using the failure of peace processes to advance the claim that any call for Palestinian freedom is genocidal. Although even the “motte” in this case is tenuous, since preventing the recognition of a Palestinian state has been an explicit goal of Israeli and U.S. foreign policy. Honestly not even sure what to say about the second paragraph, other than that “implacable religious and ethnic hatred” is definitely a deeply held Western value. We don’t have a monopoly on it, but the idea that we are the uniquely moral ones, while all those other people are just motivated by hatred… sheesh.
  - rendall 2y ago
    "failure of peace process" is quite the spin. In 2005, the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza meant the IDF leaving and taking all Jews from the area with them. That's about as pro-peace as you can get. Israel saying in essence "Here you go, Palestinians. Take all of Gaza in peace. No strings attached. We will supply you with water and electricity too!" Gazans elected Hamas and then fired so many rockets at Israelis that they had to invent a new technology to protect themselves. Gazans dug tunnels under the border with Israel for no other purpose than to kill Israelis. Yeah, like most humans, we Westerners have experience of hate, but no, Westerners do not have living experience of that level of hate. Well, Jews do.
    - sneak 2y ago
      One of the attached strings is that they aren't allowed to have a meaningful airport or seaport. It's a misrepresentation to suggest that Gaza has been free to self-realize given that it's basically been under a light-touch siege for decades.
      - rendall 2y ago
        That was not an original "string". The question is, and be honest: why was there a blockade? How long did Palestinians have Gaza and no blockade? What happened then?
    - lazyasciiart 2y ago
      “No strings attached, no access to the rest of the world without our permission”. I think you’re not seeing the strings for the wall.
      - rendall 2y ago
        This is dishonest. Try again, please. Why was "access to the rest of the world", by which I guess you mean the Egypt-Israeli blockade, put in place? When?
        FireBeyond 2y ago
        You "guess"? For someone who thinks the rest of us are so ignorant on this... Gaza's (only) Airport, which had its radar station and control tower bombed in 2001, and its runways cut up by IDF bulldozers in 2002. Gaza's port has been intermittently blockaded by the Israeli Navy since 2005, and permanently since 2007. > Exit and entry into Gaza by sea or air is prohibited. There are only three crossings in and out of Gaza, two of them controlled by Israel and one by Egypt. Israel heavily regulates Palestinians' movement through Erez, with applications considered only for a small number of laborers (less than 5% of the number considered in 2000) and for limited medical and humanitarian reasons.[6] Israel's military cooperation with Egypt and its control of the population registry (through which it controls who can obtain the necessary travel documents) gives it influence over movement through Rafah. Certainly sounds like "access to the rest of the world" is being prohibited.

rendall 2y ago

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deleted 2y ago
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jakelazaroff 2y ago
I would describe this as a motte and bailey: using the failure of peace processes to advance the claim that any call for Palestinian freedom is genocidal. Although even the “motte” in this case is tenuous, since preventing the recognition of a Palestinian state has been an explicit goal of Israeli and U.S. foreign policy. Honestly not even sure what to say about the second paragraph, other than that “implacable religious and ethnic hatred” is definitely a deeply held Western value. We don’t have a monopoly on it, but the idea that we are the uniquely moral ones, while all those other people are just motivated by hatred… sheesh.
- rendall 2y ago
  "failure of peace process" is quite the spin. In 2005, the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza meant the IDF leaving and taking all Jews from the area with them. That's about as pro-peace as you can get. Israel saying in essence "Here you go, Palestinians. Take all of Gaza in peace. No strings attached. We will supply you with water and electricity too!" Gazans elected Hamas and then fired so many rockets at Israelis that they had to invent a new technology to protect themselves. Gazans dug tunnels under the border with Israel for no other purpose than to kill Israelis. Yeah, like most humans, we Westerners have experience of hate, but no, Westerners do not have living experience of that level of hate. Well, Jews do.
  - sneak 2y ago
    One of the attached strings is that they aren't allowed to have a meaningful airport or seaport. It's a misrepresentation to suggest that Gaza has been free to self-realize given that it's basically been under a light-touch siege for decades.
    - rendall 2y ago
      That was not an original "string". The question is, and be honest: why was there a blockade? How long did Palestinians have Gaza and no blockade? What happened then?
  - lazyasciiart 2y ago
    “No strings attached, no access to the rest of the world without our permission”. I think you’re not seeing the strings for the wall.
    - rendall 2y ago
      This is dishonest. Try again, please. Why was "access to the rest of the world", by which I guess you mean the Egypt-Israeli blockade, put in place? When?
      - FireBeyond 2y ago
        You "guess"? For someone who thinks the rest of us are so ignorant on this... Gaza's (only) Airport, which had its radar station and control tower bombed in 2001, and its runways cut up by IDF bulldozers in 2002. Gaza's port has been intermittently blockaded by the Israeli Navy since 2005, and permanently since 2007. > Exit and entry into Gaza by sea or air is prohibited. There are only three crossings in and out of Gaza, two of them controlled by Israel and one by Egypt. Israel heavily regulates Palestinians' movement through Erez, with applications considered only for a small number of laborers (less than 5% of the number considered in 2000) and for limited medical and humanitarian reasons.[6] Israel's military cooperation with Egypt and its control of the population registry (through which it controls who can obtain the necessary travel documents) gives it influence over movement through Rafah. Certainly sounds like "access to the rest of the world" is being prohibited.