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> Can you openly call for the murder of <enter ethnic group> in the US under the protection of the first amendment ? Yes. We see this with open chants of "From

> Can you openly call for the murder of <enter ethnic group> in the US under the protection of the first amendment ? Yes. We see this with open chants of "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" and "Globalize the Intifada" ...as long as the call is not likely to produce "imminent lawless action". Brandenburg v. Ohio was a decision by the Supreme Court establishing the "imminent lawless action" test for determining when speech advocating illegal conduct is not protected by the First Amendment. The Court held that speech is protected unless it is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> We see this with open chants of "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" I particularly object to taking worst possible interpretation, and labelling the slogan as a call for ethnic cleansing. The phrase "will be free" would not normally be interpreted this was in in any other conflict.
- rendall 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - jakelazaroff 2y ago
    I would describe this as a motte and bailey: using the failure of peace processes to advance the claim that any call for Palestinian freedom is genocidal. Although even the “motte” in this case is tenuous, since preventing the recognition of a Palestinian state has been an explicit goal of Israeli and U.S. foreign policy. Honestly not even sure what to say about the second paragraph, other than that “implacable religious and ethnic hatred” is definitely a deeply held Western value. We don’t have a monopoly on it, but the idea that we are the uniquely moral ones, while all those other people are just motivated by hatred… sheesh.
    - rendall 2y ago
      "failure of peace process" is quite the spin. In 2005, the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza meant the IDF leaving and taking all Jews from the area with them. That's about as pro-peace as you can get. Israel saying in essence "Here you go, Palestinians. Take all of Gaza in peace. No strings attached. We will supply you with water and electricity too!" Gazans elected Hamas and then fired so many rockets at Israelis that they had to invent a new technology to protect themselves. Gazans dug tunnels under the border with Israel for no other purpose than to kill Israelis. Yeah, like most humans, we Westerners have experience of hate, but no, Westerners do not have living experience of that level of hate. Well, Jews do.
      - sneak 2y ago
        One of the attached strings is that they aren't allowed to have a meaningful airport or seaport. It's a misrepresentation to suggest that Gaza has been free to self-realize given that it's basically been under a light-touch siege for decades.
        rendall 2y ago
        That was not an original "string". The question is, and be honest: why was there a blockade? How long did Palestinians have Gaza and no blockade? What happened then?
      - lazyasciiart 2y ago
        “No strings attached, no access to the rest of the world without our permission”. I think you’re not seeing the strings for the wall.
        rendall 2y ago
        This is dishonest. Try again, please. Why was "access to the rest of the world", by which I guess you mean the Egypt-Israeli blockade, put in place? When?
        2y ago
FireBeyond 2y ago
> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" For several decades, Israel's Likud party (currently in power) election manifesto was... "From the river to the sea, there will be only Israeli sovereignty". Perhaps that's where the Palestinians got it? "Palestine will be free" is not "openly calling for murder".
- rendall 2y ago
  This is not an argument. To address my argument, you'd have to show that "free" meant "sovereignty". But you cannot, because that's not what it means. It means the destruction of Israel and the expulsion - at best - of its people. It does not mean "living in peaceful coexistence with". What else do you think it means? What else could it possibly mean?
  - helpfulContrib 2y ago
    > It means the destruction of Israel and the expulsion - at best - of its people. Literally nothing in the definition of the word means what you are attempting to make it mean: free | friː | adjective (freer | ˈfriːə | , freest | ˈfriːɪst | ) 1 able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another: I have no ambitions other than to have a happy life and be free | a free choice. • [with infinitive] able or permitted to take a specified action: you are free to leave. • (of a state or its citizens or institutions) subject neither to foreign domination nor to despotic government: a free press. • historical not a slave: the poor among the free men joined the slaves against the rich. • [in names] denoting an ethnic or political group actively opposing an occupying or invading force, in particular the groups that continued resisting the Germans in the Second World War after the fall of their countries: the Free Dutch, Free Polish, and Free Norwegian fleets. See also Free French. 2 [often as complement] not or no longer confined or imprisoned: the researchers set the birds free | police were forced to let him walk free. • not physically obstructed or fixed: he tried to kick his legs free | she smiled, leaned back, and waved a free arm in the air. • Physics (of power or energy) disengaged or available. See also free energy. • Physics & Chemistry not bound in an atom, a molecule, or a compound: the atmosphere of that time contained virtually no free oxygen. See also free radical. • Linguistics denoting a linguistic form that can be used in isolation. 3 not subject to engagements or obligations: she spent her free time shopping. • (of a facility or piece of equipment) not occupied or in use: the bathroom was free. 4 (free of/from) not subject to or affected by (something undesirable): our salsas are free of preservatives. 5 given or available without charge: free healthcare. 6 using or expending something without restraint; lavish: she was always free with her money. • frank or unrestrained in speech, expression, or action: he was free in his talk of revolution. • archaic overfamiliar or forward. 7 (of literature or music) not observing the normal conventions of style or form. • (of a translation) conveying only the broad sense; not literal. 8 Sailing (of the wind) blowing from a favourable direction to the side or aft of a vessel.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago

> We see this with open chants of "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" I particularly object to taking worst possible interpretation, and labelling the slogan as a call for ethnic cleansing. The phrase "will be free" would not normally be interpreted this was in in any other conflict.

rendall 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jakelazaroff 2y ago
  I would describe this as a motte and bailey: using the failure of peace processes to advance the claim that any call for Palestinian freedom is genocidal. Although even the “motte” in this case is tenuous, since preventing the recognition of a Palestinian state has been an explicit goal of Israeli and U.S. foreign policy. Honestly not even sure what to say about the second paragraph, other than that “implacable religious and ethnic hatred” is definitely a deeply held Western value. We don’t have a monopoly on it, but the idea that we are the uniquely moral ones, while all those other people are just motivated by hatred… sheesh.
  - rendall 2y ago
    "failure of peace process" is quite the spin. In 2005, the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza meant the IDF leaving and taking all Jews from the area with them. That's about as pro-peace as you can get. Israel saying in essence "Here you go, Palestinians. Take all of Gaza in peace. No strings attached. We will supply you with water and electricity too!" Gazans elected Hamas and then fired so many rockets at Israelis that they had to invent a new technology to protect themselves. Gazans dug tunnels under the border with Israel for no other purpose than to kill Israelis. Yeah, like most humans, we Westerners have experience of hate, but no, Westerners do not have living experience of that level of hate. Well, Jews do.
    - sneak 2y ago
      One of the attached strings is that they aren't allowed to have a meaningful airport or seaport. It's a misrepresentation to suggest that Gaza has been free to self-realize given that it's basically been under a light-touch siege for decades.
      - rendall 2y ago
        That was not an original "string". The question is, and be honest: why was there a blockade? How long did Palestinians have Gaza and no blockade? What happened then?
    - lazyasciiart 2y ago
      “No strings attached, no access to the rest of the world without our permission”. I think you’re not seeing the strings for the wall.
      - rendall 2y ago
        This is dishonest. Try again, please. Why was "access to the rest of the world", by which I guess you mean the Egypt-Israeli blockade, put in place? When?
        2y ago

FireBeyond 2y ago

> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" For several decades, Israel's Likud party (currently in power) election manifesto was... "From the river to the sea, there will be only Israeli sovereignty". Perhaps that's where the Palestinians got it? "Palestine will be free" is not "openly calling for murder".

rendall 2y ago
This is not an argument. To address my argument, you'd have to show that "free" meant "sovereignty". But you cannot, because that's not what it means. It means the destruction of Israel and the expulsion - at best - of its people. It does not mean "living in peaceful coexistence with". What else do you think it means? What else could it possibly mean?
- helpfulContrib 2y ago
  > It means the destruction of Israel and the expulsion - at best - of its people. Literally nothing in the definition of the word means what you are attempting to make it mean: free | friː | adjective (freer | ˈfriːə | , freest | ˈfriːɪst | ) 1 able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another: I have no ambitions other than to have a happy life and be free | a free choice. • [with infinitive] able or permitted to take a specified action: you are free to leave. • (of a state or its citizens or institutions) subject neither to foreign domination nor to despotic government: a free press. • historical not a slave: the poor among the free men joined the slaves against the rich. • [in names] denoting an ethnic or political group actively opposing an occupying or invading force, in particular the groups that continued resisting the Germans in the Second World War after the fall of their countries: the Free Dutch, Free Polish, and Free Norwegian fleets. See also Free French. 2 [often as complement] not or no longer confined or imprisoned: the researchers set the birds free | police were forced to let him walk free. • not physically obstructed or fixed: he tried to kick his legs free | she smiled, leaned back, and waved a free arm in the air. • Physics (of power or energy) disengaged or available. See also free energy. • Physics & Chemistry not bound in an atom, a molecule, or a compound: the atmosphere of that time contained virtually no free oxygen. See also free radical. • Linguistics denoting a linguistic form that can be used in isolation. 3 not subject to engagements or obligations: she spent her free time shopping. • (of a facility or piece of equipment) not occupied or in use: the bathroom was free. 4 (free of/from) not subject to or affected by (something undesirable): our salsas are free of preservatives. 5 given or available without charge: free healthcare. 6 using or expending something without restraint; lavish: she was always free with her money. • frank or unrestrained in speech, expression, or action: he was free in his talk of revolution. • archaic overfamiliar or forward. 7 (of literature or music) not observing the normal conventions of style or form. • (of a translation) conveying only the broad sense; not literal. 8 Sailing (of the wind) blowing from a favourable direction to the side or aft of a vessel.