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> There are outstanding systemic inequities at every level of American society. I think this needs to be backed up with evidence rather than merely asserted. I

by jack_h 2y ago

> There are outstanding systemic inequities at every level of American society. I think this needs to be backed up with evidence rather than merely asserted. I've been reading through a number of books by Thomas Sowell lately and he presents enough statistical evidence to explain disparities without any hint of racism, sexism, etc. Regardless of if you agree with him or not, the mere fact that alternate theories exist that explain why society looks as it does today should be enough to question the foundational problem that DEI claims to address. Take as an example the gender pay gap which is presented as women earning 77 cents for every dollar a man makes. While statistically true in aggregate, DEI tends to treat this axiomatically as a sign of sexism. If you dig into the statistics the vast majority of this difference is due to the fact that many women voluntarily take time off of their career to raise children.

tomnipotent 2y ago
> many women voluntarily take time off of their career to raise children Expect there is evidence to suggest that women that earn a higher income are less likely to leave the workforce, which is further influenced by access to affordable childcare and dual incomes. The point is that when you control for these factors, a woman with the same title and responsibilities as a man will earn less for the same work.
- whatthesmack 2y ago
  > The point is that when you control for these factors, a woman with the same title and responsibilities as a man will earn less for the same work. That can't possibly be true, because in a market economy, the more-expensive workers (men) would be laid off and replaced by less-expensive, equally-capable "same title and responsibilities" workers (women). This doesn't seem to be the case on a grand scale, which means it's more deep/complex than the "men get paid more than women" headline we're all used to seeing.
  - tomnipotent 2y ago
    Are you arguing that society operates from a position of optimal market theory, and that cultural norms, prejudices, and biases play no role in salary or pay rates for anyone It's not particularly hard to find examples of disparity or exploitation.
    - Manuel_D 2y ago
      Disparity and exploitation are not the same thing as ignoring an obvious way to reduce labor costs. Why would companies be smart enough to outsource labor overseas, but somehow lack the know-how to simply hire women and save 23% of labor costs? Because the "women make 77 cents on the dollar" meme is just looking at raw incomes, and not adjusting for type of job and experience.
      - tomnipotent 2y ago
        > "women make 77 cents on the dollar" meme So you've done more search than everyone else putting out data? Maybe you can share all your hard-earned discoveries on the subject, since so you're so confidently well-informed. Men account for 13% of nurses, but average $90k vs $76k for women. https://blog.carlow.edu/2022/12/29/how-the-gender-pay-gap-impacts-female-nurses/ https://blog.carlow.edu/2022/12/29/how-the-gender-pay-gap-im... Female lawyers under 35 make 90% of their male counterparts, but the gap increases to 76% by middle age. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2018/05/women-lawyers.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2018/05/women-lawyers... The trend continues for doctors, police, and even teachers. > lack the know-how to simply hire women and save 23% of labor costs If you think "know-how" is the problem, you're ill equipped for this conversation.
        Manuel_D 2y ago
        Then why don't they just hire women to do the exact same jobs as men and save a ton of money? You're still not offering a rationale for why companies aren't making use of an easy way to reduce labor costs. Which is more likely: that companies hate women so much that they're willing to ignore an opportunity to make a massive leap in profitability? Or perhaps you need to read your studies more closely and it's not the case that men and women are paid differently for the same work? Your study on nurses offers an explanation in the article: > Male nurses also reported working more hours per week, at an average 39 hours plus five hours of overtime, while female nurses reported working an average of 37 hours plus four hours of overtime. I agree that if you just count the W-2s and ignore hours worked, subfields, travel, etc. then men make more than women. My whole point is that this kind of comparison is naive. Likewise your study on lawyers grouped a hugely varied profession all into the same category. As an analogue, take doctors. Yes male and female doctor have different average incomes even for the same level of experience. But that doesn't capture the fact that over 70% of anesthesiologists are male while in pediatrics it's the opposite. This one will have an income disparity even when men and women are equally paid for the same work. It's a similarly naive analysis to lump together all lawyers into one category.
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  Seems like this isn’t always the case, so your statement shouldn’t be so absolute: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/28/young-women-are-out-earning-young-men-in-several-u-s-cities/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/28/young-wom...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - tomnipotent 2y ago
    The irony of posting an article that proves my point, you really got me there.

by jack_h 2y ago

tomnipotent 2y ago

> many women voluntarily take time off of their career to raise children Expect there is evidence to suggest that women that earn a higher income are less likely to leave the workforce, which is further influenced by access to affordable childcare and dual incomes. The point is that when you control for these factors, a woman with the same title and responsibilities as a man will earn less for the same work.

whatthesmack 2y ago
> The point is that when you control for these factors, a woman with the same title and responsibilities as a man will earn less for the same work. That can't possibly be true, because in a market economy, the more-expensive workers (men) would be laid off and replaced by less-expensive, equally-capable "same title and responsibilities" workers (women). This doesn't seem to be the case on a grand scale, which means it's more deep/complex than the "men get paid more than women" headline we're all used to seeing.
- tomnipotent 2y ago
  Are you arguing that society operates from a position of optimal market theory, and that cultural norms, prejudices, and biases play no role in salary or pay rates for anyone It's not particularly hard to find examples of disparity or exploitation.
  - Manuel_D 2y ago
    Disparity and exploitation are not the same thing as ignoring an obvious way to reduce labor costs. Why would companies be smart enough to outsource labor overseas, but somehow lack the know-how to simply hire women and save 23% of labor costs? Because the "women make 77 cents on the dollar" meme is just looking at raw incomes, and not adjusting for type of job and experience.
    - tomnipotent 2y ago
      > "women make 77 cents on the dollar" meme So you've done more search than everyone else putting out data? Maybe you can share all your hard-earned discoveries on the subject, since so you're so confidently well-informed. Men account for 13% of nurses, but average $90k vs $76k for women. https://blog.carlow.edu/2022/12/29/how-the-gender-pay-gap-impacts-female-nurses/ https://blog.carlow.edu/2022/12/29/how-the-gender-pay-gap-im... Female lawyers under 35 make 90% of their male counterparts, but the gap increases to 76% by middle age. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2018/05/women-lawyers.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2018/05/women-lawyers... The trend continues for doctors, police, and even teachers. > lack the know-how to simply hire women and save 23% of labor costs If you think "know-how" is the problem, you're ill equipped for this conversation.
      - Manuel_D 2y ago
        Then why don't they just hire women to do the exact same jobs as men and save a ton of money? You're still not offering a rationale for why companies aren't making use of an easy way to reduce labor costs. Which is more likely: that companies hate women so much that they're willing to ignore an opportunity to make a massive leap in profitability? Or perhaps you need to read your studies more closely and it's not the case that men and women are paid differently for the same work? Your study on nurses offers an explanation in the article: > Male nurses also reported working more hours per week, at an average 39 hours plus five hours of overtime, while female nurses reported working an average of 37 hours plus four hours of overtime. I agree that if you just count the W-2s and ignore hours worked, subfields, travel, etc. then men make more than women. My whole point is that this kind of comparison is naive. Likewise your study on lawyers grouped a hugely varied profession all into the same category. As an analogue, take doctors. Yes male and female doctor have different average incomes even for the same level of experience. But that doesn't capture the fact that over 70% of anesthesiologists are male while in pediatrics it's the opposite. This one will have an income disparity even when men and women are equally paid for the same work. It's a similarly naive analysis to lump together all lawyers into one category.
zeroonetwothree 2y ago
Seems like this isn’t always the case, so your statement shouldn’t be so absolute: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/28/young-women-are-out-earning-young-men-in-several-u-s-cities/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/28/young-wom...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- tomnipotent 2y ago
  The irony of posting an article that proves my point, you really got me there.