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> There has been zero change in recognition of Israel since October 7 It's not about recognition of Israel as a nation, it's about legitimacy of Israeli polici

by arp242 3y ago

> There has been zero change in recognition of Israel since October 7 It's not about recognition of Israel as a nation, it's about legitimacy of Israeli policies. The phrasing of "illegitimate pariah state" (not my phrasing) was rather unfortunate IMHO. And I think it's very hard to deny that criticism of Israel's long-term policies of settlement has increasingly come under more and more scrutiny. Even your own links are demonstrating that. This is not new criticism: pretty much the entire world except Israel and the US has been saying for decades that the settlement policy is illegal and the major roadblock to peace.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> it's very hard to deny that criticism of Israel's long-term policies of settlement has increasingly come under more and more scrutiny Oh absolutely. The legitimacy of Israel’s entire Palestine strategy has essentially crumbled. Its ability to conduct diplomatic relations has been impaired, and it’s got a massive perception problem across an entire generation. But when someone says Israel is losing legitimacy, they are arguing that its continued existence as a state is under threat. When the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden, they lost legitimacy with the United States. That’s what a country losing legitimacy means—it’s no longer treated like a real country. (I don’t necessarily think everyone who says this understands this. But that’s what those words mean.) And in respect of Israel, that simply isn’t true. In terms of pariah status it isn’t even in the world’s top ten. Its support in America—its security guarantor—is surprisingly stable. It has nukes. This isn’t a view seriously held by anyone with any military or international relations credibility. That said, I see why it has appeal in a sort of karmic justice way. Because it’s not fun to watch e.g. a Sudanese warlord or junta in Myanmar commit war crimes and win.

by arp242 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> it's very hard to deny that criticism of Israel's long-term policies of settlement has increasingly come under more and more scrutiny Oh absolutely. The legitimacy of Israel’s entire Palestine strategy has essentially crumbled. Its ability to conduct diplomatic relations has been impaired, and it’s got a massive perception problem across an entire generation. But when someone says Israel is losing legitimacy, they are arguing that its continued existence as a state is under threat. When the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden, they lost legitimacy with the United States. That’s what a country losing legitimacy means—it’s no longer treated like a real country. (I don’t necessarily think everyone who says this understands this. But that’s what those words mean.) And in respect of Israel, that simply isn’t true. In terms of pariah status it isn’t even in the world’s top ten. Its support in America—its security guarantor—is surprisingly stable. It has nukes. This isn’t a view seriously held by anyone with any military or international relations credibility. That said, I see why it has appeal in a sort of karmic justice way. Because it’s not fun to watch e.g. a Sudanese warlord or junta in Myanmar commit war crimes and win.