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The trouble is that we’re rarely “building sidewalks and roads” in a large empty space. Either there is already a road there, or there’s other immovable constra

The trouble is that we’re rarely “building sidewalks and roads” in a large empty space. Either there is already a road there, or there’s other immovable constraints like buildings and landmarks. If you’ve got some large empty space, then sure you can build a safe road and sidewalk. But the reality is that’s rarely possible, especially in urban areas that were originally planned in the horse and buggy era. The roads in the UK are narrow, and there’s limited parking space, so people park half on the sidewalk and make the road even narrower.

drozycki 2y ago
While vehicles partially on the sidewalk are a nuisance, they do provide a barrier between pedestrians and vehicles, and do have a traffic calming effect by narrowing the travel lane.
- sleepybrett 2y ago
  Vehicles partially on a sidewalk probably shouldn't be surprised if they are found with broken headlights, taillights and scratched paint.
  - kube-system 2y ago
    In the places where this practice is common, it is also accepted.
    - komali2 2y ago
      Not true in Taiwan, nearly every sidewalk is overflowing with cars and scooters illegally parked. I started closing mirrors and opening windshield wipers on cars that do this to try to get the zeitgeist moving and someone threatened to kill me for it recently.
      - kube-system 2y ago
        “Accepted” is a generality. There are individuals with beliefs counter to the norm in every city.
- CydeWeys 2y ago
  And they're excellent barriers for preventing people in wheelchairs or using walkers to get through at all.
  - wizzwizz4 2y ago
    That's why you have road markings (e.g. double / broken-single yellow line) to prohibit parking in front of curb cuts. Since curb cuts are frequently-spaced, it's not too hard to find a gap.
    - CydeWeys 2y ago
      In my experience people don't care about those markings at all. They'll park anywhere the car can physically fit into that won't unreasonably block other car traffic (and sometimes even then ...).
alistairSH 2y ago
I’m not really sure why a large empty space is needed to build a safer road/sidewalk? Just looking out my front door (suburban DC)… the road is posted 35mm but you can “safely” go 50+ because the lanes are wide and relatively straight. But, there are uncontrolled/no-signal entrances to neighborhoods every 1/4 mile or so, so speeds really should be <30mph (IMO). There are very few signaled pedestrians crossings, so if you need to cross, it’s a game of frogged, or walk a mile out of your way to the nearest full intersection. The bike lanes on the road are just painted on, no protection for cars. And on and on. None of this requires more space - just DOT employees who can think beyond getting around in a car. We could easily slow the road by narrowing the lane. We could easily add signalled ped crossings. We could easily make the sidewalks continuous (same grade through intersections instead of road level - the benefit is cars enter “pedestrian space” when crossing instead of the other way around). We could add floppy bollards (not sure what they’re called) to give more separation between cars and bicycles (won’t stop a really bad driver, but will at least stop cars from using the bike lane as yet another car lane).
- aldonius 2y ago
  > floppy bollards The technical term near me seems to be something like "delineator posts" (or just "orange posts" after the colouring) and I think that's pretty reasonable. As you say, they don't provide any protection against a car or truck, but they do signal where not to be a bit better.
  - perilunar 2y ago
    flex posts
    - aldonius 2y ago
      oh yeah, that's it!
- arp242 2y ago
  A lot of roads in British and European cities are not like that at all; it's not uncommon that they're narrow enough that they're one-way streets because it's wide enough for only one car. I just picked a random location in Bristol: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4365588,-2.5893081,3a,75y,28.76h,68.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sp6kLWBu9CQSPmADA8kKmlw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4365588,-2.5893081,3a,75y,28... – lots of Bristol streets are like that, and lots of streets in other cities are like that. In some places what you're saying does apply, but by and large, it's not like American road design.
sleepybrett 2y ago
I'm willing to pay taxes for roads, I'm increasingly not cool with paying taxes for parking. If the space for the road is too small for one lane each way plus parallel parking and ample sidewalk and pedestrian safety. The order of operations for determining what should be build it is : Sidewalks, then if there is room for a road - pedestrian safety, then a single lane road (one way) then a two way road, then we can discuss street parking.
- david-gpu 2y ago
  Let's not forget cycling infrastructure and public transit as well. We should prioritize the means of transportation that are most beneficial to society and most equitable first, then if there is room we can make some allowances for energy inefficient traffic-congesting air/noise polluting motor vehicles.
  - aldonius 2y ago
    If your roadway is designed so that the average driver only feels comfortable going about 30 km/h / 20 mph, you don't really need to have separate cycle lanes because bikes can match car speed.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      30 km/h is like 10 km/h too fast for a cyclist to comfortably match, unless we restrict mobility only to people for whom cycling is a lifestyle.
      - eertami 2y ago
        Yeah standard E-Bikes (without a registration/license plate) are limited to 25km/h here, even with the electronic assist the car is going faster.
        TeMPOraL 2y ago
        Correct, and same with e-scooters over where I live, which is how I know that most cyclists ride at about 20 km/h or less - by reading the speedometer while matching speed with a cyclist in front of me.
jrochkind1 2y ago
Ironically, the UK already does quite a bit better than the USA in pedestrian safety, despite having much more history of existing built environment. Or actually, it's perhaps not ironic, it's perhaps because of the limitations of the existing built environment in the UK, which prevented doing what has been done in many parts of the USA -- optimize for car speed over pedestrian safety.
bobthepanda 2y ago
the post is talking about the US, where the roads are absolutely massive and dangerous because they are built to Interstate standards and then posted for 40MPH and have left turns everywhere. the road diet is pretty common in the US where roads are extremely wide and plagued by speeding, and where the local political will allows realigning priorities towards safety. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_diet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_diet
mst 2y ago
More bollards on intersection corners (which is the specific intervention the article author is saying they want first and foremost) wouldn't interfere with that though, they're usually double yellow lined already. In fact, it strikes me that "places where you shouldn't try and park a car because your car would probably be hit by a car" would make a pretty decent heuristic for places to start.
- wonder_er 2y ago
  > In fact, it strikes me that "places where you shouldn't try and park a car because your car would probably be hit by a car" would make a pretty decent heuristic for places to start. Spot on. I'd LOVE to start with bollards, here. (author of the post. You're picking up exactly what I'm saying. TY.)

drozycki 2y ago

While vehicles partially on the sidewalk are a nuisance, they do provide a barrier between pedestrians and vehicles, and do have a traffic calming effect by narrowing the travel lane.

sleepybrett 2y ago
Vehicles partially on a sidewalk probably shouldn't be surprised if they are found with broken headlights, taillights and scratched paint.
- kube-system 2y ago
  In the places where this practice is common, it is also accepted.
  - komali2 2y ago
    Not true in Taiwan, nearly every sidewalk is overflowing with cars and scooters illegally parked. I started closing mirrors and opening windshield wipers on cars that do this to try to get the zeitgeist moving and someone threatened to kill me for it recently.
    - kube-system 2y ago
      “Accepted” is a generality. There are individuals with beliefs counter to the norm in every city.
CydeWeys 2y ago
And they're excellent barriers for preventing people in wheelchairs or using walkers to get through at all.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  That's why you have road markings (e.g. double / broken-single yellow line) to prohibit parking in front of curb cuts. Since curb cuts are frequently-spaced, it's not too hard to find a gap.
  - CydeWeys 2y ago
    In my experience people don't care about those markings at all. They'll park anywhere the car can physically fit into that won't unreasonably block other car traffic (and sometimes even then ...).

alistairSH 2y ago

I’m not really sure why a large empty space is needed to build a safer road/sidewalk? Just looking out my front door (suburban DC)… the road is posted 35mm but you can “safely” go 50+ because the lanes are wide and relatively straight. But, there are uncontrolled/no-signal entrances to neighborhoods every 1/4 mile or so, so speeds really should be <30mph (IMO). There are very few signaled pedestrians crossings, so if you need to cross, it’s a game of frogged, or walk a mile out of your way to the nearest full intersection. The bike lanes on the road are just painted on, no protection for cars. And on and on. None of this requires more space - just DOT employees who can think beyond getting around in a car. We could easily slow the road by narrowing the lane. We could easily add signalled ped crossings. We could easily make the sidewalks continuous (same grade through intersections instead of road level - the benefit is cars enter “pedestrian space” when crossing instead of the other way around). We could add floppy bollards (not sure what they’re called) to give more separation between cars and bicycles (won’t stop a really bad driver, but will at least stop cars from using the bike lane as yet another car lane).

aldonius 2y ago
> floppy bollards The technical term near me seems to be something like "delineator posts" (or just "orange posts" after the colouring) and I think that's pretty reasonable. As you say, they don't provide any protection against a car or truck, but they do signal where not to be a bit better.
- perilunar 2y ago
  flex posts
  - aldonius 2y ago
    oh yeah, that's it!
arp242 2y ago
A lot of roads in British and European cities are not like that at all; it's not uncommon that they're narrow enough that they're one-way streets because it's wide enough for only one car. I just picked a random location in Bristol: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4365588,-2.5893081,3a,75y,28.76h,68.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sp6kLWBu9CQSPmADA8kKmlw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4365588,-2.5893081,3a,75y,28... – lots of Bristol streets are like that, and lots of streets in other cities are like that. In some places what you're saying does apply, but by and large, it's not like American road design.

sleepybrett 2y ago

I'm willing to pay taxes for roads, I'm increasingly not cool with paying taxes for parking. If the space for the road is too small for one lane each way plus parallel parking and ample sidewalk and pedestrian safety. The order of operations for determining what should be build it is : Sidewalks, then if there is room for a road - pedestrian safety, then a single lane road (one way) then a two way road, then we can discuss street parking.

david-gpu 2y ago
Let's not forget cycling infrastructure and public transit as well. We should prioritize the means of transportation that are most beneficial to society and most equitable first, then if there is room we can make some allowances for energy inefficient traffic-congesting air/noise polluting motor vehicles.
- aldonius 2y ago
  If your roadway is designed so that the average driver only feels comfortable going about 30 km/h / 20 mph, you don't really need to have separate cycle lanes because bikes can match car speed.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    30 km/h is like 10 km/h too fast for a cyclist to comfortably match, unless we restrict mobility only to people for whom cycling is a lifestyle.
    - eertami 2y ago
      Yeah standard E-Bikes (without a registration/license plate) are limited to 25km/h here, even with the electronic assist the car is going faster.
      - TeMPOraL 2y ago
        Correct, and same with e-scooters over where I live, which is how I know that most cyclists ride at about 20 km/h or less - by reading the speedometer while matching speed with a cyclist in front of me.

jrochkind1 2y ago

Ironically, the UK already does quite a bit better than the USA in pedestrian safety, despite having much more history of existing built environment. Or actually, it's perhaps not ironic, it's perhaps because of the limitations of the existing built environment in the UK, which prevented doing what has been done in many parts of the USA -- optimize for car speed over pedestrian safety.

bobthepanda 2y ago

the post is talking about the US, where the roads are absolutely massive and dangerous because they are built to Interstate standards and then posted for 40MPH and have left turns everywhere. the road diet is pretty common in the US where roads are extremely wide and plagued by speeding, and where the local political will allows realigning priorities towards safety. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_diet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_diet

mst 2y ago

More bollards on intersection corners (which is the specific intervention the article author is saying they want first and foremost) wouldn't interfere with that though, they're usually double yellow lined already. In fact, it strikes me that "places where you shouldn't try and park a car because your car would probably be hit by a car" would make a pretty decent heuristic for places to start.

wonder_er 2y ago
> In fact, it strikes me that "places where you shouldn't try and park a car because your car would probably be hit by a car" would make a pretty decent heuristic for places to start. Spot on. I'd LOVE to start with bollards, here. (author of the post. You're picking up exactly what I'm saying. TY.)