6 ms·

If only cars weren't gigantic, oversized killing buckets... NotJustBikes just posted another video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbnBc-97Ps https://www.you

If only cars weren't gigantic, oversized killing buckets... NotJustBikes just posted another video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbnBc-97Ps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbnBc-97Ps) about the speed limit but touching on the same issue - less speed x less mass = safer environment -> less need for physical barriers (they even removed some street lights). Honestly, there wouldn't be that much need for bollard is majority of cars would be city-car like the one in 4:39 min (https://youtu.be/JRbnBc-97Ps?t=279 https://youtu.be/JRbnBc-97Ps?t=279)

Theodores 2y ago
Exactly. Excellent video and far more serious than this article. Twenty is plenty and I don't see why that can't apply to rural roads too. For too long we have had motorists be able to terrorise any other lifeform off the road in the countryside. If you have dedicated car only infrastructure then that is one thing, but everywhere else, twenty is plenty. This might seem absurd given the lack of cyclists on the road, but it will foster growth of lightweight EVs rather than monster tanks. As a cyclist I want to see all the speed bumps, traffic lights, bollards and much else banished. Bring back trees, hedges and greenery. Whenever I see footage of places in China I see fantastic landscaping and wonder why we have to have broken glass, graffiti and rubble. I am with NotJustBikes all the way.
brikym 2y ago
This clip shows how ridiculously large vehicles have become. Not only is the mass higher than ever but the front ends have become stupidly large which results in pedestrians being mowed down rather than rolling over the top. It's a symptom of american culture being highly individualistic and selfish. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6tMSEW_EBs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6tMSEW_EBs
- TylerE 2y ago
  It’s hardly stupid and it’s not in the spirit of HN to go on such diatribes. Cars today are vastly, vastly safer than even 30 years ago, never mind 80, and crumple zones are a huge part of that.
  - ladams 2y ago
    Safer for the passengers, but increasingly dangerous for pedestrians.
    - cow_boat 2y ago
      And other cars!
      - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
        That's when you get an even bigger car, for safety! That said, two cars hitting each other's large crumple zones is probably safer than a car hitting a bollard or something else unforgiving.
  - kube-system 2y ago
    I agree about the tone, but that RAM 1500 doesn't have a lot of empty space under the hood because it is necessary for a crumple zone. It's the design of the frame rails and passenger safety cage that determines the crumple zone, the empty space has no effect on this. That empty space is there because of packaging requirements for various drivetrain options and because of styling.
  - bobbylarrybobby 2y ago
    Safer for who? > It's a symptom of american culture being highly individualistic and selfish. Your comment is a bit on the nose.
  - vhcr 2y ago
    Not that vast (in the US). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/1994-_Motor_vehicle_traffic_deaths_in_road_accidents%2C_by_country.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/1994-_Mo...
    - TylerE 2y ago
      Are we looking at the same chart? Other than the recent peak due to loons during COVID, it shows a reduction of almost 50% in per-incident deaths between 1990 and 2010. See also this chart: https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/historical-fatality-trends/deaths-and-rates/ https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/historical-fatalit... Showing per capita deaths coming down from a car-boom peak of 27 in 1969 down to 11 by the 20-teens. Vastly, vastly, safer. That's not even getting into how things like energy absorbing bumpers have turned low speed collisions that might have results in injuries 50 or 60 years ago are now non-events. (probably no seat belts, certainly no shoulder belt, and the dash is full of chrome and zero padding)
- y1n0 2y ago
  I don't disagree about the individualism and selfishness, but US trucks are getting bigger in part because the CAFE standard incentivizes it.
Aurornis 2y ago
> Honestly, there wouldn't be that much need for bollard is majority of cars would be city-car like the one in 4:39 min A Smart car starts around 1500 lbs without driver. Something like a Smart fourtwo can be as much as 2300 lbs. No person or bike is going to stand a chance against a vehicle weighing an order of magnitude more, even if they look visually smaller. The idea that Smart car sized vehicles would remove the need for bollards is not realistic at all. You also can’t judge vehicle safety by appearance. There are a lot of lightweight, small, low front end cars that actually have poor pedestrian crash ratings because the low front end takes people out at the knees. The Honda S2000 is a classic example. A lot of the internet anti-car anger likes to idolize things like Smart Cars as solutions to everything, but the reality is that any time you have a vehicle weighing an order of magnitude more than a human capable of traveling at 40mph in a matter of seconds, humans don’t stand a chance against it in an impact. Smart cars are great for parking and fuel efficiency, but the idea that they would automatically solve pedestrian safety issues as well is just fantasy. Marginal improvement? Sure. Solution that removes the need for bollards? Definitely not.
- ignormies 2y ago
  Even if we assume smartcar--pedestrian collisions are just as dangerous for pedestrians as pickup--pedestrian collisions, a smartcar--smartcar collision is going to be a lot less dangerous for the occupants than a smartcar--pickup or pickup--pickup collision at equal speeds. Not disagreeing with your overall point, but vehicle size and weight still contribute an awful lot to the >40000 vehicle fatalities in the US each year.
  - rootusrootus 2y ago
    Statistically, the majority of pedestrian deaths each year occur on high speed roads, with cars doing 45-55 mph. The v^2 part of the equation is going to dominate. We should get average speed down in areas where pedestrians are, and take steps to ensure that pedestrians are nowhere near the places we allow cars to go highway speed. About half of all pedestrian deaths are caused by drunk driving, so that's another relatively low hanging fruit we could aim for if we really had the political will to do so.
freddie_mercury 2y ago
The role of size of modern gigantic SUVs is vastly overstated. Speed is much more of an issue. But it doubtful that citizens (or planners) would be willing to accept the residential & city speed limits required to meaningfully affect change. "Across 2000-2019 I estimate that 8,131 pedestrian lives would have been saved if all light trucks had been cars. The reduction would be equal to avoiding 9.5% of all pedestrian deaths" https://www.justintyndall.com/uploads/2/8/5/5/28559839/tyndall_pedestrian.pdf#page=25 https://www.justintyndall.com/uploads/2/8/5/5/28559839/tynda... Other countries who have seen large increases in SUV ownership (i.e. other parts of the anglosphere) have still reduced pedestrian fatalities. https://www.ft.com/content/9c936d97-5088-4edd-a8bd-628f7c7bba31 https://www.ft.com/content/9c936d97-5088-4edd-a8bd-628f7c7bb... And the NYTimes found that pedestrian fatalities only increased at night, not during the day, suggesting vehicle size isn't the primary factor. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/11/upshot/nighttime-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/11/upshot/nightt... Even a microcar still weighs 350kg https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/microcar/microcar-mc1-2007-review/ https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/microcar/microcar-... Even a circa 1995 era car moving at 32mph has a 25% fatality rate on pedestrians. https://aaafoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/2011PedestrianRiskVsSpeedReport.pdf https://aaafoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/2011Ped... Even at 23mph there is still a 10% fatality rate. At 16mph there's a 10% risk of severe injury. So you'd need to have residential speed limits something under 20mph and probably under 15mph. Right now residential speed limits in the US are 30-35mph in most jurisdictions. With some places making it actually illegal to go slower than 20mph. And those speed limits largely unenforced anyway, as anyone with children who play outside can tell you. https://www.mit.edu/~jfc/urban-speed.html https://www.mit.edu/~jfc/urban-speed.html
- tim333 2y ago
  Central London has gone mostly 20mph and it seems successful. The traffic wasn't very fast there anyway. Wales did a 20mph in all urban areas thing and it's been a bit mixed I think. Some people ok, some changing back.
aidenn0 2y ago
Of course speed limits don't matter without speed enforcement (either cultural or legal; I noticed the heavy propaganda campaign behind the 30kph limits shown in the video). Areas with heavy pedestrian traffic have 25mph (40kph) speed limits where I live, but people regularly go 30-35 (48-56kph) on them, even when there are traffic calming devices and timed lights.
- ktosobcy 2y ago
  I think this is a mix of cultural/legal. In Switzerland (people tend to behave in a community-sane manner) and Czechia (strick enforcing) people seem to be sticking to the limits. In Poland it was usually 10-20kmph above the limit because "I drive safe", however recently a new law was passed that on the one hand unified limits (we had 50kmph during the day and 60kmph in the night for the within city general limits) and they increased fines for breaking the law and AFAIR number of accidents dropped quite a lot...

Theodores 2y ago

Exactly. Excellent video and far more serious than this article. Twenty is plenty and I don't see why that can't apply to rural roads too. For too long we have had motorists be able to terrorise any other lifeform off the road in the countryside. If you have dedicated car only infrastructure then that is one thing, but everywhere else, twenty is plenty. This might seem absurd given the lack of cyclists on the road, but it will foster growth of lightweight EVs rather than monster tanks. As a cyclist I want to see all the speed bumps, traffic lights, bollards and much else banished. Bring back trees, hedges and greenery. Whenever I see footage of places in China I see fantastic landscaping and wonder why we have to have broken glass, graffiti and rubble. I am with NotJustBikes all the way.

brikym 2y ago

This clip shows how ridiculously large vehicles have become. Not only is the mass higher than ever but the front ends have become stupidly large which results in pedestrians being mowed down rather than rolling over the top. It's a symptom of american culture being highly individualistic and selfish. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6tMSEW_EBs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6tMSEW_EBs

TylerE 2y ago
It’s hardly stupid and it’s not in the spirit of HN to go on such diatribes. Cars today are vastly, vastly safer than even 30 years ago, never mind 80, and crumple zones are a huge part of that.
- ladams 2y ago
  Safer for the passengers, but increasingly dangerous for pedestrians.
  - cow_boat 2y ago
    And other cars!
    - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
      That's when you get an even bigger car, for safety! That said, two cars hitting each other's large crumple zones is probably safer than a car hitting a bollard or something else unforgiving.
- kube-system 2y ago
  I agree about the tone, but that RAM 1500 doesn't have a lot of empty space under the hood because it is necessary for a crumple zone. It's the design of the frame rails and passenger safety cage that determines the crumple zone, the empty space has no effect on this. That empty space is there because of packaging requirements for various drivetrain options and because of styling.
- bobbylarrybobby 2y ago
  Safer for who? > It's a symptom of american culture being highly individualistic and selfish. Your comment is a bit on the nose.
- vhcr 2y ago
  Not that vast (in the US). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/1994-_Motor_vehicle_traffic_deaths_in_road_accidents%2C_by_country.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/1994-_Mo...
  - TylerE 2y ago
    Are we looking at the same chart? Other than the recent peak due to loons during COVID, it shows a reduction of almost 50% in per-incident deaths between 1990 and 2010. See also this chart: https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/historical-fatality-trends/deaths-and-rates/ https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/historical-fatalit... Showing per capita deaths coming down from a car-boom peak of 27 in 1969 down to 11 by the 20-teens. Vastly, vastly, safer. That's not even getting into how things like energy absorbing bumpers have turned low speed collisions that might have results in injuries 50 or 60 years ago are now non-events. (probably no seat belts, certainly no shoulder belt, and the dash is full of chrome and zero padding)
y1n0 2y ago
I don't disagree about the individualism and selfishness, but US trucks are getting bigger in part because the CAFE standard incentivizes it.

Aurornis 2y ago

> Honestly, there wouldn't be that much need for bollard is majority of cars would be city-car like the one in 4:39 min A Smart car starts around 1500 lbs without driver. Something like a Smart fourtwo can be as much as 2300 lbs. No person or bike is going to stand a chance against a vehicle weighing an order of magnitude more, even if they look visually smaller. The idea that Smart car sized vehicles would remove the need for bollards is not realistic at all. You also can’t judge vehicle safety by appearance. There are a lot of lightweight, small, low front end cars that actually have poor pedestrian crash ratings because the low front end takes people out at the knees. The Honda S2000 is a classic example. A lot of the internet anti-car anger likes to idolize things like Smart Cars as solutions to everything, but the reality is that any time you have a vehicle weighing an order of magnitude more than a human capable of traveling at 40mph in a matter of seconds, humans don’t stand a chance against it in an impact. Smart cars are great for parking and fuel efficiency, but the idea that they would automatically solve pedestrian safety issues as well is just fantasy. Marginal improvement? Sure. Solution that removes the need for bollards? Definitely not.

ignormies 2y ago
Even if we assume smartcar--pedestrian collisions are just as dangerous for pedestrians as pickup--pedestrian collisions, a smartcar--smartcar collision is going to be a lot less dangerous for the occupants than a smartcar--pickup or pickup--pickup collision at equal speeds. Not disagreeing with your overall point, but vehicle size and weight still contribute an awful lot to the >40000 vehicle fatalities in the US each year.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  Statistically, the majority of pedestrian deaths each year occur on high speed roads, with cars doing 45-55 mph. The v^2 part of the equation is going to dominate. We should get average speed down in areas where pedestrians are, and take steps to ensure that pedestrians are nowhere near the places we allow cars to go highway speed. About half of all pedestrian deaths are caused by drunk driving, so that's another relatively low hanging fruit we could aim for if we really had the political will to do so.

freddie_mercury 2y ago

The role of size of modern gigantic SUVs is vastly overstated. Speed is much more of an issue. But it doubtful that citizens (or planners) would be willing to accept the residential & city speed limits required to meaningfully affect change. "Across 2000-2019 I estimate that 8,131 pedestrian lives would have been saved if all light trucks had been cars. The reduction would be equal to avoiding 9.5% of all pedestrian deaths" https://www.justintyndall.com/uploads/2/8/5/5/28559839/tyndall_pedestrian.pdf#page=25 https://www.justintyndall.com/uploads/2/8/5/5/28559839/tynda... Other countries who have seen large increases in SUV ownership (i.e. other parts of the anglosphere) have still reduced pedestrian fatalities. https://www.ft.com/content/9c936d97-5088-4edd-a8bd-628f7c7bba31 https://www.ft.com/content/9c936d97-5088-4edd-a8bd-628f7c7bb... And the NYTimes found that pedestrian fatalities only increased at night, not during the day, suggesting vehicle size isn't the primary factor. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/11/upshot/nighttime-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/11/upshot/nightt... Even a microcar still weighs 350kg https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/microcar/microcar-mc1-2007-review/ https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/microcar/microcar-... Even a circa 1995 era car moving at 32mph has a 25% fatality rate on pedestrians. https://aaafoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/2011PedestrianRiskVsSpeedReport.pdf https://aaafoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/2011Ped... Even at 23mph there is still a 10% fatality rate. At 16mph there's a 10% risk of severe injury. So you'd need to have residential speed limits something under 20mph and probably under 15mph. Right now residential speed limits in the US are 30-35mph in most jurisdictions. With some places making it actually illegal to go slower than 20mph. And those speed limits largely unenforced anyway, as anyone with children who play outside can tell you. https://www.mit.edu/~jfc/urban-speed.html https://www.mit.edu/~jfc/urban-speed.html

tim333 2y ago
Central London has gone mostly 20mph and it seems successful. The traffic wasn't very fast there anyway. Wales did a 20mph in all urban areas thing and it's been a bit mixed I think. Some people ok, some changing back.

aidenn0 2y ago

Of course speed limits don't matter without speed enforcement (either cultural or legal; I noticed the heavy propaganda campaign behind the 30kph limits shown in the video). Areas with heavy pedestrian traffic have 25mph (40kph) speed limits where I live, but people regularly go 30-35 (48-56kph) on them, even when there are traffic calming devices and timed lights.

ktosobcy 2y ago
I think this is a mix of cultural/legal. In Switzerland (people tend to behave in a community-sane manner) and Czechia (strick enforcing) people seem to be sticking to the limits. In Poland it was usually 10-20kmph above the limit because "I drive safe", however recently a new law was passed that on the one hand unified limits (we had 50kmph during the day and 60kmph in the night for the within city general limits) and they increased fines for breaking the law and AFAIR number of accidents dropped quite a lot...