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>> the world seeing israel as an illegitimate pariah state >Your other claims are true. This one is not. I should have phrased that more precisely but I was j

>> the world seeing israel as an illegitimate pariah state >Your other claims are true. This one is not. I should have phrased that more precisely but I was just judging by what Israel's ministry of hasbara itself seems to be most concerned with and fears the most is people questioning israel's legitimacy. Combined with the sentiment that can be seen across social media where even regular folks have started seeing israel as a racist settler colonial project that has no legitimacy. But you're correct, my previous wording was too ambiguous since "the world" is too broad and can refer to too many things.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> the sentiment that can be seen across social media where even regular folks have started labelling israel as a racist settler colonial project that has no legitimacy A majority of Americans support Israel's war [1]. An overwhelming majority believe Israel has a right to exist [2]. (The exception being 18 to 24-year olds, among whom 31% believe Israel does not.) Israel has faced practically zero actual diplomatic consequences as a result of its war, with even those voting against it at the UN continuing to e.g. trade with and talk to it [3]. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/ https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-i... [2] https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP_Dec23_KeyResults.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel
- kelthuzad 2y ago
  >A majority of Americans support Israel; that fraction has actually grown recently [1] America is a special case and does not represent the regular folks of the world because it's home to the strongest israeli lobby on the planet and their supporters are mostly die-hard evangelicals for whom no evil israel does is too far. Just listen to Jonathan Greenblatt's admission in the leaked[1] conversation where he verbatim states: “We have a major, major, major generational problem, All the polling I’ve seen: the ADL’s polling, ICC’s polling, independent polling, suggests that this is not a left, right gap folks. The issue of the United States’ support of Israel is not left and right. It is young and old.” [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1bec4z5/leaked_conversation_with_jonathon_greenblatt_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1bec4z5/...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > America is a special case and does not represent the regular folks of the world Israel's net favourability is down globally [1]. But there is zero evidence it's losing legitimacy; very few countries flipped sign. Instead, it was countries that didn't like Israel a bit disliking them more. (And again, not to the degree of carrying policy consequences.) > issue of the United States’ support of Israel is not left and right. It is young and old Sure. 31% is a lot. But it's also still 31%. [1] https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/ https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opini...
    - kelthuzad 2y ago
      >Israel's net favourability is down globally [1]. But there is zero evidence it's losing legitimacy; very few countries flipped sign. >zero evidence it's losing legitimacy zero? "Colombia nation cuts ties with Israel amid Columbia University protest"[0] Your judgment on this is rather shortsighted and there is more than enough evidence that israel is losing legitimacy. The people's opinion rarely turns into policy over night, even in democracies. I've observed the sentiments on this particular issue for more than a decade and I can tell you that I've never seen such insane amount of regular folks, from diverse backgrounds and political affiliations, who fearlessly speak truth about israel in a manner that would make Menachem Begin tremble in his grave. I'm observing Israeli accounts and hasbara efforts and it's evident, from the content they produce, that they fear losing legitimacy and are acting accordingly e.g. investing a lot of money into gerrymandering/astroturfing[1] Even dictators in the middle east, who are puppets of the US and Israel, are fearing of losing their own legitimacy because of what their own people perceive[2][3] as corrupt and subservient behavior to the empire. Those dictators are one arab spring away from getting brought to justice by their own people for their complicity in israel's genocide and they know it and they fear that. [0] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2024/05/02/columbia-colombia-cuts-israel-ties-protest/73544284007 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2024/05/02/columbi... [1] https://x.com/5149jamesli/status/1783144486031495389 https://x.com/5149jamesli/status/1783144486031495389 [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/saudi-arabia-steps-up-gaza-arrests-as-israel-ties-edge-closer https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/saudi-ara... [3] https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240415-jordans-treachery-in-support-of-israel-is-nothing-new/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240415-jordans-treachery...

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> the sentiment that can be seen across social media where even regular folks have started labelling israel as a racist settler colonial project that has no legitimacy A majority of Americans support Israel's war [1]. An overwhelming majority believe Israel has a right to exist [2]. (The exception being 18 to 24-year olds, among whom 31% believe Israel does not.) Israel has faced practically zero actual diplomatic consequences as a result of its war, with even those voting against it at the UN continuing to e.g. trade with and talk to it [3]. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/ https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-i... [2] https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP_Dec23_KeyResults.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel

kelthuzad 2y ago
>A majority of Americans support Israel; that fraction has actually grown recently [1] America is a special case and does not represent the regular folks of the world because it's home to the strongest israeli lobby on the planet and their supporters are mostly die-hard evangelicals for whom no evil israel does is too far. Just listen to Jonathan Greenblatt's admission in the leaked[1] conversation where he verbatim states: “We have a major, major, major generational problem, All the polling I’ve seen: the ADL’s polling, ICC’s polling, independent polling, suggests that this is not a left, right gap folks. The issue of the United States’ support of Israel is not left and right. It is young and old.” [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1bec4z5/leaked_conversation_with_jonathon_greenblatt_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1bec4z5/...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > America is a special case and does not represent the regular folks of the world Israel's net favourability is down globally [1]. But there is zero evidence it's losing legitimacy; very few countries flipped sign. Instead, it was countries that didn't like Israel a bit disliking them more. (And again, not to the degree of carrying policy consequences.) > issue of the United States’ support of Israel is not left and right. It is young and old Sure. 31% is a lot. But it's also still 31%. [1] https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/ https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opini...
  - kelthuzad 2y ago
    >Israel's net favourability is down globally [1]. But there is zero evidence it's losing legitimacy; very few countries flipped sign. >zero evidence it's losing legitimacy zero? "Colombia nation cuts ties with Israel amid Columbia University protest"[0] Your judgment on this is rather shortsighted and there is more than enough evidence that israel is losing legitimacy. The people's opinion rarely turns into policy over night, even in democracies. I've observed the sentiments on this particular issue for more than a decade and I can tell you that I've never seen such insane amount of regular folks, from diverse backgrounds and political affiliations, who fearlessly speak truth about israel in a manner that would make Menachem Begin tremble in his grave. I'm observing Israeli accounts and hasbara efforts and it's evident, from the content they produce, that they fear losing legitimacy and are acting accordingly e.g. investing a lot of money into gerrymandering/astroturfing[1] Even dictators in the middle east, who are puppets of the US and Israel, are fearing of losing their own legitimacy because of what their own people perceive[2][3] as corrupt and subservient behavior to the empire. Those dictators are one arab spring away from getting brought to justice by their own people for their complicity in israel's genocide and they know it and they fear that. [0] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2024/05/02/columbia-colombia-cuts-israel-ties-protest/73544284007 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2024/05/02/columbi... [1] https://x.com/5149jamesli/status/1783144486031495389 https://x.com/5149jamesli/status/1783144486031495389 [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/saudi-arabia-steps-up-gaza-arrests-as-israel-ties-edge-closer https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/saudi-ara... [3] https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240415-jordans-treachery-in-support-of-israel-is-nothing-new/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240415-jordans-treachery...