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Interestingly, the OpenStreetMap project considers road signage to be unquestionable "ground truth". If the sign changes, the map changes. We can't use any othe

Interestingly, the OpenStreetMap project considers road signage to be unquestionable "ground truth". If the sign changes, the map changes. We can't use any other database because that might not be available under a compatible licence.

dawnerd 3y ago
I haven’t checked but how do they handle streets if the signs have two different spellings? There was a street growing up that was spelled two different ways and I still don’t know what the right one was!
- macleginn 3y ago
  My favourite example is a small road in Killarney called The Hahah in English but in Irish written "An Fhaiche" in one place and "An Háhá" in another. OpeStreetMap seems to designate the first one as name:ga and the second one as alt_name:ga.
  - Self-Perfection 3y ago
    This tagging is most likely the result of a single OSM editor decision. They are quite often wrong / suboptimal / do not conform to guidelines. It is always better to consult extensive OSM wiki to figure out how something should be tagged rather than try to figure out based on existing examples. In case of names here is relevant guide: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names
  - DoughnutHole 3y ago
    This is a recurring problem in Ireland due to nationwide local government incompetence in using the Irish language. Centuries old Irish language place names get replaced with bastard gaelicised versions of their English names, and now you’ve a mishmash of signage all over the place. Often the new names are just an invention of the council that sort of sounds right.
    - macleginn 3y ago
      This is very true, but there is also an issue of which Irish orthography to use, right? Place names are very conservative, but modern speakers would be more used to O'Donnell's dictionary's variants than to ones from Dinneen, basically. Paradoxically, English forms sometimes give hints as to the correct pronunciation.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  The rules are as open to change as the data I guess, but if there really isn't one obvious "proper" name I've seen things named with a slash like "name 1/name 2". Often there is specific tagging to overcome this, though. For example in bilingual countries like Wales many roads have any English and Welsh name. The language-specific names are uncontroversial, but the overall "name" (for the international map) is supposed to be in the "local language". As you can imagine this isn't always uncontroversial.
- Self-Perfection 3y ago
  Naming is complicated. OSM community invented approaches to capture lots of nuances. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names
londons_explore 3y ago
Just because something is written on a road sign does not make it magically copyright or license free. I know a business which has to pay a nominal $1 license fee for the names of its own stores to a map maker, simply because the business has lost any evidence that it had the names before the map maker put them in the map.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > Just because something is written on a road sign does not make it magically copyright or license free. That's untrue; facts can't be copyrighted. Whether there's a road sign or not, the name of the road is not subject to copyright, but if there is a road sign, then it's really easy to prove that your claim about the road is an uncopyrightable fact.
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    Petty clarification: single facts can't be copyrighted, but collections of facts (e.g. sports scores) can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in_compilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in_compilation
    - gnabgib 3y ago
      On that page: facts are not copyrightable ..compilations are, but you're obtaining a copyright on the compilation, not the facts.
      - globular-toast 3y ago
        No they aren't, but there is such a thing as a database right which is separate from copyright. This is why OSM changed from a Creative Commons licence (a copyright licence) to ODbL (a database licence).
        thaumasiotes 3y ago
        > but there is such a thing as a database right which is separate from copyright That's purely an unforced error on the part of OpenStreetMap. They are incorporated in England, which recognizes a database right. But there is no reason for that. In general, there is no such thing as a database right. And this isn't even relevant to londons_explore's point; he is stupidly arguing that even if the information is available on a road sign, the public cannot use it because it might be included in a protected work somewhere. That is obviously untrue; the availability on the road sign does in fact automatically mean that inclusion in a protected work is irrelevant. If you see a sign giving you the name of a road, and then publish information to the effect that the road's name is what is printed on that sign, no database was involved at any point, and a database right cannot apply. All you have is a bare fact.
Mountain_Skies 3y ago
Don't know if it is still an issue but Atlanta used to have problems with the in-house sign shop producing street signs with misspelled names. Apparently, boulevard in particular was difficult for the city to get correct which was a problem since there's a major road simply named "Boulevard". Maybe it got corrected after one of the local news channels did a segment about it but does highlight the fact that road signs sometimes aren't authoritative.

dawnerd 3y ago

I haven’t checked but how do they handle streets if the signs have two different spellings? There was a street growing up that was spelled two different ways and I still don’t know what the right one was!

macleginn 3y ago
My favourite example is a small road in Killarney called The Hahah in English but in Irish written "An Fhaiche" in one place and "An Háhá" in another. OpeStreetMap seems to designate the first one as name:ga and the second one as alt_name:ga.
- Self-Perfection 3y ago
  This tagging is most likely the result of a single OSM editor decision. They are quite often wrong / suboptimal / do not conform to guidelines. It is always better to consult extensive OSM wiki to figure out how something should be tagged rather than try to figure out based on existing examples. In case of names here is relevant guide: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names
- DoughnutHole 3y ago
  This is a recurring problem in Ireland due to nationwide local government incompetence in using the Irish language. Centuries old Irish language place names get replaced with bastard gaelicised versions of their English names, and now you’ve a mishmash of signage all over the place. Often the new names are just an invention of the council that sort of sounds right.
  - macleginn 3y ago
    This is very true, but there is also an issue of which Irish orthography to use, right? Place names are very conservative, but modern speakers would be more used to O'Donnell's dictionary's variants than to ones from Dinneen, basically. Paradoxically, English forms sometimes give hints as to the correct pronunciation.
globular-toast 3y ago
The rules are as open to change as the data I guess, but if there really isn't one obvious "proper" name I've seen things named with a slash like "name 1/name 2". Often there is specific tagging to overcome this, though. For example in bilingual countries like Wales many roads have any English and Welsh name. The language-specific names are uncontroversial, but the overall "name" (for the international map) is supposed to be in the "local language". As you can imagine this isn't always uncontroversial.
Self-Perfection 3y ago
Naming is complicated. OSM community invented approaches to capture lots of nuances. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names

londons_explore 3y ago

Just because something is written on a road sign does not make it magically copyright or license free. I know a business which has to pay a nominal $1 license fee for the names of its own stores to a map maker, simply because the business has lost any evidence that it had the names before the map maker put them in the map.

thaumasiotes 3y ago
> Just because something is written on a road sign does not make it magically copyright or license free. That's untrue; facts can't be copyrighted. Whether there's a road sign or not, the name of the road is not subject to copyright, but if there is a road sign, then it's really easy to prove that your claim about the road is an uncopyrightable fact.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  Petty clarification: single facts can't be copyrighted, but collections of facts (e.g. sports scores) can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in_compilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in_compilation
  - gnabgib 3y ago
    On that page: facts are not copyrightable ..compilations are, but you're obtaining a copyright on the compilation, not the facts.
    - globular-toast 3y ago
      No they aren't, but there is such a thing as a database right which is separate from copyright. This is why OSM changed from a Creative Commons licence (a copyright licence) to ODbL (a database licence).
      - thaumasiotes 3y ago
        > but there is such a thing as a database right which is separate from copyright That's purely an unforced error on the part of OpenStreetMap. They are incorporated in England, which recognizes a database right. But there is no reason for that. In general, there is no such thing as a database right. And this isn't even relevant to londons_explore's point; he is stupidly arguing that even if the information is available on a road sign, the public cannot use it because it might be included in a protected work somewhere. That is obviously untrue; the availability on the road sign does in fact automatically mean that inclusion in a protected work is irrelevant. If you see a sign giving you the name of a road, and then publish information to the effect that the road's name is what is printed on that sign, no database was involved at any point, and a database right cannot apply. All you have is a bare fact.

Mountain_Skies 3y ago

Don't know if it is still an issue but Atlanta used to have problems with the in-house sign shop producing street signs with misspelled names. Apparently, boulevard in particular was difficult for the city to get correct which was a problem since there's a major road simply named "Boulevard". Maybe it got corrected after one of the local news channels did a segment about it but does highlight the fact that road signs sometimes aren't authoritative.