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> Restricting access based on protected characteristics What about when you turn that on its head? "Promoting access based on ..." If you assume a finite set

by worik 3y ago

> Restricting access based on protected characteristics What about when you turn that on its head? "Promoting access based on ..." If you assume a finite set of places to access then the approaches are equivalent, but for the the emphasis I think it matters (I am unsure DEI is the solution) that people can access professional services supplied by professionals from a similar cultural background to themselves In Aotearoa we have mechanisms to encourage Māori applicants to law and medical school for exactly this reason, and it seems to have been both hugely successful and extremely triggering.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> we have mechanisms to encourage Māori applicants to law and medical school I see the argument for setting aside seats for people who fluently speak the language. I do not based on race. ”Black patients hav[ing] better interactions, on average, with physicians of their own race” is a problem, but segregating medical care on the basis of race isn’t the solution [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7174451/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7174451/
- worik 3y ago
  > see the argument for setting aside seats for people who fluently speak the language. I do not based on race. It is based on culture It is not enough to have genes. And since most Māori people speak English it would simply be stupid to base it on language as that language would be English not Te Reo Māori
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > It is based on culture If one can define culture without relying on biological heredity, sure again. It would be better, however, to address the underlying issue: lack of cross-cultural knowledge that causes the reduced outcomes. (And why Māori students aren't getting into those programmes in a race-neutral process.)
    - darkhorse222 3y ago
      I feel that deconstructing the entire culture of race is not really a practical suggestion for solving the issue. This outcome is not uncommon when you ask those against DEI how they would solve it. Often they recommend systematic solutions that they would in the end also be against because those solutions would surely use race as a targeting mechanism.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > deconstructing the entire culture of race is not really a practical suggestion for solving the issue Sure. But normalising discrimination based on race entrenches it.
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    Aside: calling the Māori language "Te Reo Māori" in English is unhelpful performative posturing. Yes, that's what the language is called in Māori, but we don't call Chinese "Zhongwen" or 中文.
    - worik 3y ago
      Untrue It is what it's called, here, in NZ English
      - resolutebat 3y ago
        I know, but it's still unhelpful performative posturing. There would be zero risk of confusion if it was called simply "Māori" or "the Māori language" instead, the way we do with every other language in the world.
        squigz 3y ago
        > it's still unhelpful performative posturing Why exactly is it "unhelpful"? You say there's no risk of simply saying Maori - what is the risk in calling it what it's called?
        worik 3y ago
        It is a difficult adjustment for us here, especially for older generations, the change has been very dramatic. "unhelpful" is a mild expression of discomfort
- tzs 3y ago
  I remember seeing a similar study that took place at a busy walk in clinic in an area with a very diverse population. People would come in and get treated by whichever of the doctors on duty that day was available. The researchers found that when successful treatment would require the patient to follow the doctors instructions after leaving, such as getting a prescription filled, taken the full course of medication, doing or refraining from certain exercises, etc., the patient was more likely to actually do those things the more the doctor was like them in things like race, gender, and ethnicity.
lazide 3y ago
If everyone is well fed and feeling secure, it feels good to be generous. When folks are hungry and/or insecure, it feels like taking from their and their children’s mouths and giving to their competition. And there are essentially fractal levels of division possible. And so the wheel turns.

by worik 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> we have mechanisms to encourage Māori applicants to law and medical school I see the argument for setting aside seats for people who fluently speak the language. I do not based on race. ”Black patients hav[ing] better interactions, on average, with physicians of their own race” is a problem, but segregating medical care on the basis of race isn’t the solution [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7174451/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7174451/

worik 3y ago
> see the argument for setting aside seats for people who fluently speak the language. I do not based on race. It is based on culture It is not enough to have genes. And since most Māori people speak English it would simply be stupid to base it on language as that language would be English not Te Reo Māori
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > It is based on culture If one can define culture without relying on biological heredity, sure again. It would be better, however, to address the underlying issue: lack of cross-cultural knowledge that causes the reduced outcomes. (And why Māori students aren't getting into those programmes in a race-neutral process.)
  - darkhorse222 3y ago
    I feel that deconstructing the entire culture of race is not really a practical suggestion for solving the issue. This outcome is not uncommon when you ask those against DEI how they would solve it. Often they recommend systematic solutions that they would in the end also be against because those solutions would surely use race as a targeting mechanism.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > deconstructing the entire culture of race is not really a practical suggestion for solving the issue Sure. But normalising discrimination based on race entrenches it.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Aside: calling the Māori language "Te Reo Māori" in English is unhelpful performative posturing. Yes, that's what the language is called in Māori, but we don't call Chinese "Zhongwen" or 中文.
  - worik 3y ago
    Untrue It is what it's called, here, in NZ English
    - resolutebat 3y ago
      I know, but it's still unhelpful performative posturing. There would be zero risk of confusion if it was called simply "Māori" or "the Māori language" instead, the way we do with every other language in the world.
      - squigz 3y ago
        > it's still unhelpful performative posturing Why exactly is it "unhelpful"? You say there's no risk of simply saying Maori - what is the risk in calling it what it's called?
        worik 3y ago
        It is a difficult adjustment for us here, especially for older generations, the change has been very dramatic. "unhelpful" is a mild expression of discomfort
tzs 3y ago
I remember seeing a similar study that took place at a busy walk in clinic in an area with a very diverse population. People would come in and get treated by whichever of the doctors on duty that day was available. The researchers found that when successful treatment would require the patient to follow the doctors instructions after leaving, such as getting a prescription filled, taken the full course of medication, doing or refraining from certain exercises, etc., the patient was more likely to actually do those things the more the doctor was like them in things like race, gender, and ethnicity.

lazide 3y ago

If everyone is well fed and feeling secure, it feels good to be generous. When folks are hungry and/or insecure, it feels like taking from their and their children’s mouths and giving to their competition. And there are essentially fractal levels of division possible. And so the wheel turns.