6 ms·

You can print apostrophes on a street sign without any database issues because a street sign doesn't interface directly with a database. At least not yet... Al

You can print apostrophes on a street sign without any database issues because a street sign doesn't interface directly with a database. At least not yet... All the technical issues here have already been solved a hundred times, there's plenty of other options. It's a little worrying that we're eliminating punctuation in real life because of issues with integrating with geographical databases.

pjc50 2y ago
This routinely happens to names. Even now you get systems which refuse to deal with O', let alone non-English characters.
msla 2y ago
Apparently, this is because of a standard they're required to conform to, not database software in specific: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40265929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40265929 > As far as I can tell, this isn't an issue with the specific database itself, but the standard they are required to record geographic data in, which the end of the article mentions as "BS 7666". On the other hand, you’re naïve if you think English hasn’t already been simplified to fit on machinery such as typewriters and cheap printing presses. This process began long before computers.
- eesmith 2y ago
  The Linotype machine supported ﬂ, ﬀ, ﬃ, ℔, œ, and æ. See https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Linotype_keyboard_with_Star_Quadder_attachment.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Linotype... linked to from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linotype_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linotype_machine. Or see https://archive.org/details/LinotypeKeyboardPractice/page/n9/mode/2up?q=linotype+keyboard&view=theater https://archive.org/details/LinotypeKeyboardPractice/page/n9... . Even cheap printing presses could handle more than you think. Here's a type case layout from 1846, again with æ, œ, ﬂ, ﬀ, and ﬃ, ﬁ and ﬄ. https://archive.org/details/printingapparatu00holtrich/page/18/mode/2up?q=%22type+case%22&view=theater https://archive.org/details/printingapparatu00holtrich/page/... . That book is for the "Parlour printing press [which] was invented by Mr. Cowper for the amusement and education of youth, by enabling them to print any little subject they had previously written, provided the printing did not exceed in size the dimensions of an ordinary duodecimo page, which measures about 5 inches by 3 inches."
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    Did it support þ? That would be the best-known example of written English being changed to accommodate a printing press rather than the other way around.
    - eesmith 2y ago
      No. But that doesn't really fit since þ had mostly died out by the 1300s, with only few remaining uses by Caxton's printing - long before the 1800s. I also wouldn't call those typewriters or cheap printing presses.
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        Is there something relevant about the 1800s? I said þ was an example of the written language changing to accommodate the printing press, not changing to accommodate the 1800s.
        eesmith 2y ago
        I had responded to msla's comment about "typewriters and cheap printing presses". Those didn't exist in the 1500s. þ's disappearance from English is not due to either, though the lack of þ in available type faces was certainly an issue.
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        But the reference to "cheap printing presses" has to be interpreted as actually being a reference to type, as you have already done with your archive.org link. The press itself cannot either support or fail to support any graphical forms; there's no difference in the press whether you're using type or block printing. Press quality issues are things like "are the surfaces flat" / "how much pressure can the press apply" / "how many pages can we press before running into a mechanical issue".
        2y ago
- calibas 2y ago
  With the printing press it makes sense, there's physical constraints that make things very difficult if you want to support a huge number of different characters. Those limitations don't exist anymore though. On one hand we have systems supporting Unicode and just about every character imaginable, it's an example of using technology to go beyond the limitations of the past. You could have a system that supports emojis on street signs, but instead we're going the opposite direction and introducing artificial limitations that are even more restrictive than 500 year-old technology.
bmitc 2y ago
It seems like it is yet another example of software not written to requirements so now the requirements are adjusted to fit the software implementation.
globular-toast 2y ago
Interestingly, the OpenStreetMap project considers road signage to be unquestionable "ground truth". If the sign changes, the map changes. We can't use any other database because that might not be available under a compatible licence.
- dawnerd 2y ago
  I haven’t checked but how do they handle streets if the signs have two different spellings? There was a street growing up that was spelled two different ways and I still don’t know what the right one was!
  - macleginn 2y ago
    My favourite example is a small road in Killarney called The Hahah in English but in Irish written "An Fhaiche" in one place and "An Háhá" in another. OpeStreetMap seems to designate the first one as name:ga and the second one as alt_name:ga.
    - Self-Perfection 2y ago
      This tagging is most likely the result of a single OSM editor decision. They are quite often wrong / suboptimal / do not conform to guidelines. It is always better to consult extensive OSM wiki to figure out how something should be tagged rather than try to figure out based on existing examples. In case of names here is relevant guide: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names
    - DoughnutHole 2y ago
      This is a recurring problem in Ireland due to nationwide local government incompetence in using the Irish language. Centuries old Irish language place names get replaced with bastard gaelicised versions of their English names, and now you’ve a mishmash of signage all over the place. Often the new names are just an invention of the council that sort of sounds right.
      - 2y ago
mihaaly 2y ago
You are talking about the country where accounting systems cannot add numbers... And people believe anything that comes out of a computer regardless of thousands of signs that something is really not right. They rather prosecute others without doubt on mass scale rather than look into themselves. (see the Post Office scandal)

pjc50 2y ago

This routinely happens to names. Even now you get systems which refuse to deal with O', let alone non-English characters.

msla 2y ago

Apparently, this is because of a standard they're required to conform to, not database software in specific: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40265929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40265929 > As far as I can tell, this isn't an issue with the specific database itself, but the standard they are required to record geographic data in, which the end of the article mentions as "BS 7666". On the other hand, you’re naïve if you think English hasn’t already been simplified to fit on machinery such as typewriters and cheap printing presses. This process began long before computers.

eesmith 2y ago
The Linotype machine supported ﬂ, ﬀ, ﬃ, ℔, œ, and æ. See https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Linotype_keyboard_with_Star_Quadder_attachment.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Linotype... linked to from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linotype_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linotype_machine. Or see https://archive.org/details/LinotypeKeyboardPractice/page/n9/mode/2up?q=linotype+keyboard&view=theater https://archive.org/details/LinotypeKeyboardPractice/page/n9... . Even cheap printing presses could handle more than you think. Here's a type case layout from 1846, again with æ, œ, ﬂ, ﬀ, and ﬃ, ﬁ and ﬄ. https://archive.org/details/printingapparatu00holtrich/page/18/mode/2up?q=%22type+case%22&view=theater https://archive.org/details/printingapparatu00holtrich/page/... . That book is for the "Parlour printing press [which] was invented by Mr. Cowper for the amusement and education of youth, by enabling them to print any little subject they had previously written, provided the printing did not exceed in size the dimensions of an ordinary duodecimo page, which measures about 5 inches by 3 inches."
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  Did it support þ? That would be the best-known example of written English being changed to accommodate a printing press rather than the other way around.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    No. But that doesn't really fit since þ had mostly died out by the 1300s, with only few remaining uses by Caxton's printing - long before the 1800s. I also wouldn't call those typewriters or cheap printing presses.
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      Is there something relevant about the 1800s? I said þ was an example of the written language changing to accommodate the printing press, not changing to accommodate the 1800s.
      - eesmith 2y ago
        I had responded to msla's comment about "typewriters and cheap printing presses". Those didn't exist in the 1500s. þ's disappearance from English is not due to either, though the lack of þ in available type faces was certainly an issue.
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        But the reference to "cheap printing presses" has to be interpreted as actually being a reference to type, as you have already done with your archive.org link. The press itself cannot either support or fail to support any graphical forms; there's no difference in the press whether you're using type or block printing. Press quality issues are things like "are the surfaces flat" / "how much pressure can the press apply" / "how many pages can we press before running into a mechanical issue".
        2y ago
calibas 2y ago
With the printing press it makes sense, there's physical constraints that make things very difficult if you want to support a huge number of different characters. Those limitations don't exist anymore though. On one hand we have systems supporting Unicode and just about every character imaginable, it's an example of using technology to go beyond the limitations of the past. You could have a system that supports emojis on street signs, but instead we're going the opposite direction and introducing artificial limitations that are even more restrictive than 500 year-old technology.

bmitc 2y ago

It seems like it is yet another example of software not written to requirements so now the requirements are adjusted to fit the software implementation.

globular-toast 2y ago

Interestingly, the OpenStreetMap project considers road signage to be unquestionable "ground truth". If the sign changes, the map changes. We can't use any other database because that might not be available under a compatible licence.

dawnerd 2y ago
I haven’t checked but how do they handle streets if the signs have two different spellings? There was a street growing up that was spelled two different ways and I still don’t know what the right one was!
- macleginn 2y ago
  My favourite example is a small road in Killarney called The Hahah in English but in Irish written "An Fhaiche" in one place and "An Háhá" in another. OpeStreetMap seems to designate the first one as name:ga and the second one as alt_name:ga.
  - Self-Perfection 2y ago
    This tagging is most likely the result of a single OSM editor decision. They are quite often wrong / suboptimal / do not conform to guidelines. It is always better to consult extensive OSM wiki to figure out how something should be tagged rather than try to figure out based on existing examples. In case of names here is relevant guide: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names
  - DoughnutHole 2y ago
    This is a recurring problem in Ireland due to nationwide local government incompetence in using the Irish language. Centuries old Irish language place names get replaced with bastard gaelicised versions of their English names, and now you’ve a mishmash of signage all over the place. Often the new names are just an invention of the council that sort of sounds right.
    - 2y ago

mihaaly 2y ago

You are talking about the country where accounting systems cannot add numbers... And people believe anything that comes out of a computer regardless of thousands of signs that something is really not right. They rather prosecute others without doubt on mass scale rather than look into themselves. (see the Post Office scandal)