3 ms·

> It’s also irrelevant that the algorithm maker isn’t a direct competitor if you and your competitors each agree to use their product knowing the others are doi

• bobmcnamara 2y ago
  > Presumably no one is colluding to use the algorithm together. They are each independently clients of the algorithm. If you replace "the algorithm" with "our mutual friends pricing advice", it's the same old blatant price fixing clearly prohibited. And no need to presume: the FTC arguments are quite clear they were advertising to take each landlords data and tune the pricing as if they owned all properties themselves. It's page 23 in the PDF, 11/23 in the memorandum. https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/YardiSOI-filed%28withattachments%29_0.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/YardiSOI-filed%...
  • judge2020 2y ago
    > If you replace "the algorithm" with "our mutual friends pricing advice", it's the same old blatant price fixing clearly prohibited. The difference between this comparison and what's actually happening is that the friend doesn't actually price decisions for "today" with information they learned from other competitors that also asked them for price decisions "today". Instead, it's like a friend giving you a preset excel spreadsheet where you plug in your competitors' price history and your price history and it spits out a number. Is it really illegal for everyone to use the same spreadsheet with the same math in it? Another child comment of my original top level comment suggests the collusion was that, to use the algorithm at all, a rental property had to accept its output price at least 85% of the time.
    • bobmcnamara 2y ago
      > Instead, it's like a friend giving you a preset excel spreadsheet where you plug in your competitors' price history and your price history and it spits out a number. Is it really illegal for everyone to use the same spreadsheet with the same math in it? Yes, if the competitors are colluding to share their price history with competitors for the purposes of market manipulation. > Another child comment of my original top level comment suggests the collusion was that, to use the algorithm at all, a rental property had to accept its output price at least 85% of the time. That's one of several smoking guns. Even if the recommendations were not required to used but only for initial pricing, that's also a smoking gun. No need to refer to comments, read the FTC memorandum, it cites their historical cases.
      • judge2020 2y ago
        > Yes, if the competitors are colluding to share their price history with competitors for the purposes of market manipulation. The issue is that this sharing is only done so that they don’t have to waste bandwidth and cpu cycles scraping prices they already know from their competitors’ websites. Is it collusion if everyone is shopping their competitors prices? Or is it illegal to use the same math equations in the same order? and might I add, imagine this algorithm is possibly “the most perfect algorithm at generating positive rent growth” to which there is no improvements possible, so a government body forcing you to create your own algorithm could be de-facto government sabotage. It would be like the government preventing railroad operators from using the same ticket pricing calculation minimumPrice = miles * costPerMile + flatCosts
        • bobmcnamara 2y ago
          > Is it collusion if everyone is shopping their competitors prices? Not at all! Competitors are free to publish their prices, to whoever they want, for loads of reasons, but colluding to raise prices isn't allowed. Realpage advertised this as a pricing cartel as a service though. Prices for rent used to be much more negotiable than they are today, in part because of Realpage. From personal experience, landlords before Realpage were more willing to take a lower offer on something that had been vacant a while. But maybe they should have kept it vacant if they knew they were already the best price for similar accomodations. >and might I add, imagine this algorithm is possibly “the most perfect algorithm at generating positive rent growth” to which there is no improvements possible... A perfect algorithm with global knowledge is what the act is trying to prevent, because tilts the market entirely in favor of supply against demand. Same effect as a monopoly, which is why it's illegal. A lot of this stuff was hashed out in cases around a hundred years ago, by people who tried and failed similar hope-theres-a-loophole arguments, and there are plenty of loopholes they could've hid behind, but instead: "According to the complaints, RealPage’s own marketing materials make clear that it “utilizes the competitive data” of competitors, to allow those competitors to “outperform the market,” As RealPage allegedly put it, it offered clients “the ability to ‘outsource daily pricing and ongoing revenue oversight’ to RealPage,” allowing RealPage to “set prices for its clients’ properties ‘as though we [RealPage] own[ed] them ourselves.’”